- This topic has 13 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 18 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Can’t live with them cant live without them .
Or can we ?
An idea that was mooted in the early hours at the last mtg was the whole concept of ourselves becoming work providers.
the bare bones of it were that we tout for work direct to the people that require it doing i.e insurance co’s ,manufacturers etc etc .
Ian Dales and I kind of do it already in a small way,we formed a co-operative with two other guys touting our postcodes to relevant parties .
I got as far as being asked to do a presentation to Beko ,sadly that trail went cold when they decided to do something different .
Ian has had more success landing one manufacturer & two Insurance companies .
the one common thread that they all come back with is the requirement to deal direct with the guy on the road and to cut out the middle man ,which is where we have a massive advantage over the likes of GBDAR and Others and can kick them where it hurts .
Now I know there are obstacles ,like call Handling software and a central Hub etc but the principal is there .
There were also lots of ideas thrown about re equitable partners or no equity involved at all which all need discussing in depth .
I was wondering what other people felt ?
LawrenceRe: Work Providers …
In principle, as I said two years ago, I have no issue with it and I think it’s worth a shot.
However, it requires thought and some planning. If there’s interest there’s definitely merit in looking at the idea IMO but I do think that we have to keep it in-house until it’s solid enough to make public.
But work providers, no I don’t think we need them.
K.
Re: Work Providers …
As both Lawrence and I have seen from experience of our small cooperative it can work. However, what must be agreed at the outset is that allocated areas are stuck to. ie This is my area you do not enter it without telling me. This may seem abit harsh but our experience of dealing with manufacturers/work providers has left our industry working the ‘Im having that job bugger you’ What Lawrence did not add was that initially we started off with five members,(15 engineers) after about three months two got the boot for poaching work from the others. We now are back up to five with two new guys following the rules. Hopefully, we will continue to grow. I suppose what we have learned is perhaps why Ken started UKW, you have to work together, because if you dont the Man/WPs will chop you to bits.
Re: Work Providers …
I will admit to bringing the topic back to the limelight at sibson and only found 2 maybe 3 ( I was pi.ssed 😆 ) out off all there who gave any kind of conditional support.
My thoughts were if we could get enough members together to form a seperate company which would be the work provider, all the founder members would have to input capital to set this company.
The founder members would be shareholders in the company and would receive priority on work ( if we could get any!! ) in their own patch and a network of of other agents could be set up to cover the rest.
But, going on the general opinion at Sibson I don’t think this is capable of getting off the ground due to lack of support.
JohnRe: Work Providers …
So, here’s an idea…
Why don’t we all say how we think it should be done then see if there’s any merit in the notion?
I’ve made my views on this subject well known in the past, if I got involved it would have o be a sort of co-operative type affair, much to the disgust of many people I’m know.
I’d have to think about structure but, in essence, I can’t see why it couldn’t work if it was handled correctly.
K.
Re: Work Providers …
Hi All
my disagreement of how this would be done it towards the charging or retention of monies for the founders and the priority of those to get the work.DASA comes to mind and the quote” Work for the boys”.
It could be done in the same way as a type of co operative.
The idea of UKW or Company getting the work then charging for the work to be passed to engineers would make it the same as it is now through work providers and make us no better than them.
Bryan
Re: Work Providers …
The crux of the matter is this, you have to adopt the ‘all for one and one for all’ principle. With most people worried about upsetting wp/mans we find ourselves grasping at straws and taking all work that is offered even if it means pinching it off your mates. This type of game does not work in a cooperative. You have to select your area and stick to it, if you want to expand you do so with the agreement of the coop members (not an easy thing to do) and if they say no, thats the end of you expansion. You also have to agree that if one company gets grief from a manufacturer you are all liable to lose the work. From our experience there are two types of engineer, one that stabs you in the back and one that doesn’t. If you are the former then a cooperative is not for you, if you are the latter and can work within the framework you might get chosen.
On the subject of charging, I see no problem with that, someone somewhere has to pay the admin bill. Where we are different is that we don’t charge between £10-20 to pass the call.
Re: Work Providers …
r600a wrote:Hi All
The idea of UKW or Company getting the work then charging for the work to be passed to engineers would make it the same as it is now through work providers and make us no better than them.
BryanI tend to agree with that. The only way any service group or body could attract manufacturers, insurers etc would be a “one stop shop” for these bodies, where thay have live updated information and single point billing, with single charge rates. Logistically to do all that would mean the same as we have got now, but a new name. Morevover we have to get the message across what can UKW offer that they don’t already have. Not easy, as they are settled in their own comfort zones, and so are a lot of the repairers.
I suspect all that will happen will be a talking shop, and then die on the vine. Would be nice to control it though, prioritise and keep things in order.
Alex
Re: Work Providers …
And this is where I really fell out with Kevin on this subject in June of 2006.
As a co-operative it can work I think however, it would have to be unlike anything that has gone before but regardless of that or whatever route would be adopted the single biggest issue is getting people to do the work reliably over the entire UK. Even with the info I have there’s still big, glaring holes in certain postal areas, especially on gas and refrigeration.
The “buy-in, tie-in” thing has been tried before and failed, Mainland Services formed before NESN came into whites. Then of course we have NESN which is a sort of co-op only not, more akin to the Mainland model but, NESN did and does work for the browngoods guys, in fact it’s quite lucrative.
The point at which NESN was formed was, pretty much, where we are now. Repairs were dropping due to low-cost imported goods and the repairer numbers were dwindling.
You have to learn from the mistakes and successes of others.
If this is a serious notion then the software et all is a non-issue, there is no need for a call center or a huge amount of admin IMO, use the resources you have… the agents. The first thing to be done is to plot the cover then fill the holes as, once you have the network to do the work the rest imply falls into place if it’s a go’er.
My fear is, frankly, that Connect rule the world as right now there appears to be little competition.
Just my opinion of course.
K.
Re: Work Providers …
This old chesnut keeps rising it’s head every couple of years and always get’s no where.
Even manufacturers are turning away from work providers now. We have seen quite a few examples of this in the last few months.
To me it would be like like chasing after the Titanic in a pilot boat to get onboard.
I have no doubt that this works on a small local scale with five or six small local firms who know one another well and are willing to pull together but to do this on a national scale would require serious funding and admin, so you will be back to the DASA senario of the big boy’s who chuck in, calling all the odds.
We can see the early warnings in the economy of things getting tighter with fuel and material prices rising monthly. It hasn’t taken the manufacturers long to work out that the only savings to be made are by knocking out the middlemen. They have already squeezed the service providers as far as they can.
To be perfectly honest guys, my best time in this trade was during the last recession due to High priced appliances, tighter credit and people having machines mended rather than thrown away. I have a feeling we are heading back towards somthing similar to those halcion days.
We already have the fairest set up with UK Whitegoods and it’s free. The only thing I would suggest is that we try and encourage more trade guys on the site to sign up for Repairs@/WTA and encourage them to fund it’s promotion.
That way everybody gets a chance at the work. We should not turn ourselves into overseers cracking the whip or blackmailing guys with their own work on behalf of manufacturers.
If manufacturers want to use guys on the site who have agreed a common standard of service, then fine and dandy, they simply work out their own deal between themselves.
To me the single most important issue in making our independent section of this trade more viable, is still the same one I was banging on about in some of my first posts on UKW. That is the artificially high price of spares but we need the WTA with a lot more members and credibility first to stand a chance of cracking that particular nut.
Sean
Re: Work Providers …
Del wrote:This old chesnut keeps rising it’s head every couple of years and always get’s no where.
I agree, it’s a none starter, pointless even, unless that is you can anticipate what the manufacturers next move is in the light of current trends and financial constraints? The Indesit Company being the example here, I would suggest?
Using CDSL as being a typical ‘middle man’ with the logistics to make it work for them, why do Indesit do what they do right now? The mix of staff and francised agents is all a bit of a problem for them right now don’t you think? But the likes of CDSL will want more to sort it for them than they are willing to pay I suspect? One stop shopping is not an option for Indesit but a ‘Service Force’ approach may be?
Whatever they choose to do in the future is neither here nor their for any of us to capitalise on due again to the logistics of the whole setup. A UKW Service Force guaranteeing nationwide wall to wall service coverage at a budget price level is simply impossible to think about let alone contemplate. Local ‘jobs for boys’ is not an option for these guys either as that’s worse than the system they have in place already.
As for Sean’s take on the price of spares issue? Again you have to associate the supply and demand aspect of that. CDSL again are the major stockest of genuine spares, they dictate the price they buy from the manufacturers based entirely on supply and demand. Those goods that gather dust in their bin boxes get priced accordingly.
Direct manufacturers priced spares on the other hand are impossible to figure but again are no doubt associated to the same supply and demand and outside manufacturing cost factoring. Motors will always be expensive ‘cos their heavy and made from precious metals. Drums are big and bulky, cosmetic stuff impossible to quantify stockholding levels etc etc…it goes on and on!:rolls:
The best option for UKW and the WTA to persue is conformity. By that I mean maintaining a standard of service quality that meets with OFT standards and are upheld first and foremost. Constantly showing all that we, above all others, are the good guys. (shut it Ken – I know what your next line will be mate, don’t waste your breath or split a blood vessel :wink:) That then commands respect and ultimately recognition from outside. Beyond that it’s hard to envisage what will transpire but hopefully the mountain will come to Mohammed and we will be quick to capitalise on any eventuality?
Martin
Re: Work Providers …
The really difficult thing is that everything that everone has said so far is quite valid.
My own personal take on things is that I am becoming increasingly frusrated at the work providers creaming of a “management fee”some justified some down right extortianate.
We have a situation whereby the actual guy on the ground with the skills to execute the job is at the end of the food chain picking up scraps and putting up with ever increasing demands as manufacturers endeavour to find another edge over there rivals and these are then passed on by the work providers or manufacturers .
We had mastercare same day service ,Prebooked diary slots ,Samsung w/end work (I know they pay well) fixed price repairs ,no choice on where to source parts etc .
As to how we tackle it all I am not sure .
One thing is sure if we say nothing and do nothing we will end up with nothing.
Some said that the WTA wouldn’t get of the ground ,but with a bit of lateral thinking and not doing things as they have always been done we have achieved a lot in a short space of time -ID Cards ,20{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} discount on Vauxhall vans ,Seeking to acheive OFT recognition (work in progress) yes we still have lots to do but we have started and that in itself is a big thing .At the moment the Insurers & Manufacturers wanting service have a very limited market within which to source there service solutions.
Connect ,JTM ,GBDAR,ISDAL to name but a few ,They all do fundamentally the same thing perhaps in slightly different ways.
But by using all of the above they are always going to be one step removed from there customer ,and that is what hurts them .I Think that the manufacturers are beginning to wake up to the fact that on the whole they get better service ,and better customer care ,and quicker contact with the guy that is doing the job by dealing with the service provider i.e us than by dealing with an intermediary ,the value of that far out strips the one stop shop scenario.
The way in which we deal with customers and resolve there issues is our most valuable asset and as such that is what we should sell oursleves on.
I hear the argument we have been here before ,and I take the point that it may go no where.
And I think Alex is right when he says that a lot are set in there ways and are complacent.
However I for one don’t want to say that I didn’t at least explore all the options before laying it to rest .Lawrence
Re: Work Providers …
Martin, I’m not getting into a debate over this, not my place and not a battle in which I really want to engage for the moment. I pick my fights carefully and exclude those that pointless or that I can’t win. Take your pick of which I consider the rag waved to be.
Have we all realised yet that all the issues raised and, there’s a few here, are inextricably linked?
In the end it’s this simple, can a bunch of hairy assed engineers get up and do something better for themselves?
Based on the evidence thus far I’d have to conclude that yes, they can.
Right now the service engineers have a unique position which they have not had since I can recall, WP’s or whoever needs us more that we need them.
To that end I’ve put my money where my mouth is, this week I have ditched ISDAL and placed MFI/AIG on stop. Sod them, I don’t need the hassles from them or the sh1te they choose to pass when no-one else will take the work. Low volume and high hassle work I just won’t tolerate, it’s easier to go stack shelves in Tesco and get paid the sane without the worries and grief thanks.
So, how far said hairy assed, uneducated and obviously stupid people want to take it is entirely up to them and their fate lies in their own hands. But, as John is fond of reminding people, if you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.
The future is up to you, it will be decided here. It is merely deciding on how far you want to push the envelope that’s in debate, the principals, not the mechanics. Ordered correctly the mechanic will follow the principal as, there’s always a way.
K.
(Enough Vodka for one evening, any more and I may start typing lucid stuff ;))
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.