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An interesting debate developed today regarding the free advice we give to UKW ‘Punters’, and one that would benefit further debate from Trade Members please??
Question: When a customer/ukw guest asks for help in repairing their faulty appliance, do we… A.) Ask what the fault/make/model is, then… B.) Knowing the fault from the symptoms make a frank and honest diagnosis on this site. Or do we… C.) Suggest various likely fault options to the customer/ukw guest, thereby recommending… D.) a call to establish the fault. Or do we… E.) Go feet first into saying that their product is crap, chuck it away and buy a new one, ‘cos it might be your motor is knackered, your pump is naff, biggest lot of tosh since Moses passed away.
Or maybe …F.) a better and more final suggestion (perhaps) is to answer the customer/ukw guest directly, pointing out the likely scenario’s they are faced with and suggesting that we ( the repairers that is) can indeed attempt a repair at whatever likely cost that may entail.
Better that than saying from the outset (without the benefit of an call to inspect) that …G.) These machines are all crap, best throw it away and buy new! Then I am certain as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow… H.) That will be the last you will see of your customer/UKW guest. And whilst you have… I.) done your good deed for the day, you haven’t… J.) Earned any money 😥
What is the point of it all ❓ ❓ ❓
Martin
Re: Free Advice?
As we discussed in IRC earlier with regard to the case in point…
We all know that the appliances are a pile of poo (in this instance and others like Servis/Merloni guff) and that any repair beyond what the chap had already done was going to be basically:
A/ More hassle than it was worth to the customer and the repairer
B/ Expensive regardless of the nature of the fault, with a 1{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} chance of deviation more or less as there’s an outside chance it was a TOC or relay failure.
Had you noticed that the guy had already said that he had replaced the thermostat? No doubt at a cost of £20 or thereabouts that he had already wasted and then comes on here and asks what else it could be so he was trying to save the cash from the outset. In effect, the customer was lost before we even began and was already set on a repair on a budget, therefore very likely to call one of the free estimate merchants and either encourage a cowboy or waste someone’s (or indeed several) people’s time and fuel. IMO, no loss was there all that could be done is to salvage what you can from the situation. Which leads to…
C/ What had he done, had he cocked it up?
Again, given the very nature of the appliance that you’re reffering to the chances are that it was a regass or a pot job, regass what, about £70 or so and a pot over £200? The most probable failure was the pot given it’s out of warranty so no repair would be done anyway in all likliehood as the guy can nip into MFI and get a new one for not a lot more.
So, given those facts it’s better just to tell the guy to scrap it and then he tells others that he got solid, honest advice here IMO.
Now, had the chap simply asked what the fault was if it wasn’t cooling properly then it would have been a different ball game as it may well have been a simple (read good) stat change job for someone which would have been worthwhile. You may also have noticed that all of us, myself included, have advised an engineer’s call where we feel it is needed and justifiable, I think that’s being realistic with the advice given and, in the end, it’s only a personal opinion. But since he’d already changed the stat that avenue was ruled out, assuming of course he did it correctly.
It’s all very well trying to get more work from people like that but if all the advice ever given is “call an engineer” then the public will soon get wise to it and switch off even asking questions. Honesty works and wins every time IME and IMO.
As I explained to you earlier, customers that I take the time to explain such things to may not call me tomorrow or next week but they will (and do) call us when we’re needed and happily pay our charges as they assume we know what we’re about as we’ve already won half the battle by treating the customer in a proffesional manner. Of course, that’s just my opinion and how I treat my customers.
K.
Re: Free Advice?
kwatt wrote:As we discussed in IRC earlier with regard to the case in point…
Oh dear Ken, you had to go into the specific case in point. That we discussed on IRC and kind of agreed to disagree on that. However I was kind of hoping to generate a greater debate from the members by not refering to specific cases here. But seeing as you brought the subject back up and to turn it around and use it as THE case in point….
….UKW guest says his fridge is not getting cold and he has bought a stat and it still doesn’t get cold…..help?
Immediate advice without any suggestion that perhaps an engineer should check it out……….”Your compressor is knackered, £200 plus to fix, go away and buy a new one!”
What are we doing here.??? What is the point??? Perhaps I should throw my toolbox away and join a monastery???(who said yes?)
Does anyone see my point and would venture a comment please, without such dirogatory generalisations of Oh! its a Whirlpool, they are crap, throw it in the bin mate???????/
Martin
Given the relatively small number of public enquiries per day compared with the number of members all out repairing (700 members x 10 calls a day= 7000 jobs that we know about per day) AND we haven’t recruited everyone yet, the scale of the professional marketplace becomes rather clearer.
On that basis I have no objection in principle to giving out reasoned advice based on what we’re told, with the proviso that
1) Pull the plug first.
2) It’s your own fault if you DON’T pull the plug first.
3) If you’re not sure what you’re doing or can’t be sure of a diagnosis – look in the database for a UKW engineer in your area.Publically trashing stuff doesn’t help anyone, it may be seen to be an act of spite at not getting a job.
Also, just because we detest a particular make or model doesn’t mean that a punter does. After all, they paid for it and howling too loudly at their folly would imply that they are fools for having purchased the machine in the first place.
Not good for image!
If we are going to keep the public advice forums open we need to maintain a reasoned and cool, professional front, and keep what we really think in here.
Regards,
Penguin45.Re: Free Advice?
Martin wrote:Immediate advice without any suggestion that perhaps an engineer should check it out……….”Your compressor is knackered, £200 plus to fix, go away and buy a new one!”
My actual response was:
Yeah or still more likely the compressor is fried, in which case you can look at a bill that’s the best part of £200 or more.
Leaks tend to be on new appliances, they should show up in the first 6 months or so as a fault, beyond that is usually something else that’s the problem.
There are other things that can cause the fault, depending on whether it’s a frost free or not etc as I’m not familiar with that particular appliance but if it’s a bog standard machine it’s most likely a compressor failure.
Which points out, quite clearly that it is MORE likely than the suggestion that it was short of gas, a tired old cliche that TBH, I’m sick of hearing in this industry. I’m not pointing finger or laying blame, but the information given on gas was inaccurate given that the appliance is obviously outside it’s waranty period. After that, unless some clown has been in playing with it or Mrs has stabbed the evaporator with a knife then the chances of a leak are practically zero. The chances of an under-counter pot overheating, dragging oil into the condensate line and choking solid is extremely high especially since we just had a nice little heatwave to enjoy.
And yes, I do get a bit heated about the “short of gas” crap, after re-visiting many other’s supposed SOG calls because the original engineer simply didn’t know what to look for, and finding not one, yep not a single one, that justified it where the system had been untouched so I’m a bit touchy on the subject. If it gets out of the first year without a system failure then the only real reasons that I encounter with any regularity are as above.
You’ll also note I left it open for other faults and also that I wasn’t familiar with that particular machine.
So yes, if the advice is sound I don’t have an issue but I do think it went off on a tangent that could have lulled the customer into a false sense of what could actually be done, it’s better to prepare them for the most probable outcome, even if you and the customer don’t like it.
Penguin is totally correct about rubbishing the appliance or a brand in particular, although I must admit I’ve taken the odd swipe at one or two as well (guilty m’laud ;)) but just because you know the outcome and why doean’t mean you have to publicise it. I didn’t nor did Dave so I can’t see any issue there. But the heart of the matter for me is that that is maybe the second time that a constomer has been advised to just bin a machine, in fact I can’t recall another occasion of it. However, I have seen as often a “oh that part costs xxxx” but that’s down to the stupid spares pricing by manufacturers, not us and after that it’s the customer’s call.
Anyway Martin, if we did all do that almost every Hotpoint/Merloni/Indesit/Servis/Other Brand XXX job would be a machine in the bin before we went out there. 😆
K.
Re: Free Advice?
I think I will let this issue rest now as my point was overlooked over the contentious issue of the quote : …”out of gas crap!”
However it would be nice if those ‘engineers’ amongst us would refrain from pre-judging certain appliances has having terminal faults without fully equating the facts. Remembering that in almost all instances we can assure the postee that his/her faulty appliance can be repaired, and that they have come to the right place for it to be fixed. In the case of ‘intigrated appliances’ the need for a repair far exceeds the need and practicalities of replacing it. Also to refrain from belittling their purchase and offer fair, unbiased and constructive advice 😉
Martin
Re: Free Advice?
Martin,
I have heard this thing about the lack of gas for years, quite frankly it is crap 99/100 and you picked a poor example to fight your case on here and the point wasn’t overlooked.
I know what you’re trying to say only too well, what I’m pointing out is that often times it’s better just to admit defeat and move on. I have said before, my father once told me that as soon as a customer asks for a spare you’ve lost the call. He was correct.
The customer will try to return it as wrong/faulty etc if then try something else, if you’ve ever retailed spares you’ll know what I’m on about. And most of these customers have no intention of having an engineer to the house, even if they did they wouldn’t generally pay for a repair. That’s what I was trying to say.
Other than that, answering every post with “call an engineer” is just daft IMO and actually could well work against the credibility of the information in the eyes of the public, I prefer to give them the information as openly and honestly as I can and let them decide their course of action.
I know that we want to all promote our services through UKW and that’s fine I have absolutely no issue with that at all nor with the use of the database etc., otherwise I would never have bothered with the effort of putting there and maintaining it. I hope it yields results for people and even one call out it is one you didn’t have and may never have got.
Intergrated appliances are worth repairing far, far more than their freestanding counterparts, I fully agree with that and as you have seen from my posts on many of the MFI dishwashers we’ve seen it arrives at the “call an engineer” advice being given. But that does not negate the fact that should a customer come on and tell us that one needs a timer and a motor then they would be better advised to cut their losses and buy a replacement than invest >£200 in a 4+ year old appliance, or how about an ice ball under a chest freezer, do we advise an engineer calls to that too? In other words the advice has to fit the circumstance and you have to take each case on its own merits. Given that, experience and the fact that it is remote diagnosis I think that the advice given was sound enough and it’s now up to the customer as they know the best scenario (which was eliminated) and now they know the worst. I also think that the vast majority of the advice on offer has been 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} to date and followed a reasonable path on UKW, including your own posts, so I don’t quite see the problem here other than having a pop at the one that says “scrap it”.
However I did take a look at TDS Online and it is indeed a bog standard built under intergrated produced in year 2000, so four years old with a condensor cooling fan. So there is a chance that Richard is correct about the condensor fluffed up, but I’d doubt it will be as easy as that in my experience, it’s far more likely to be a system failure. Now, at that point it becomes a case of, do you tell the customer the likely cause or do you get someone out and take money off them knowing full well that it will most likely be in vain? From your posts I would assume that you would not inform the customer, go and take the money and run, I wouldn’t.
K.
Re: Free Advice?
Well I actually wasn’t keeping my head down on this, it’s just that what had already been said I couldn’t have added much to really, so with the fear of being repetetive.
Free advice I have quite often given, therefore giving the customer an informed choice. I have actually tried the “hard line” in the past many times, it goes hand in hand with the free estimates thing really. The problem I find is that people after advice are just after that, advice, they have no intention of spending any money in the first place.
In the past with the hard line approach, booking calls for customers, even those that have been pre warned about likely charges and the fact that their appliance may well be BER have still complained bitterly about being charged, so you can’t win, and then that’s that customer, all their families friends and collegues lost forever generally.
So, in the main, I would offer advice, give them the worst case scenario and then let them decide, even telling customers how to unblock filters, cooker timers, etc, the customer is happy with the advice and will ultimately recommend us to many more people than the pissed off one who’s £50 worse off and still has no working appliance, or we only spent five minutes in the house and carried out work that the customer was more than capable of doing themselves.
Refrigeration is an entity unto itself where remote diagnosis is concerened, a standard single pot, non frost free unit with the pot running continuously can only be one of three things, all of them expensive, terminal or a non guaranteed outcome, so I give the customer the possible situation, my personal recommendation and let them make the choice.
But I do take Penguin’s point about openly slagging certain appliances in the public forums and making the punter feel stupid for buying it, education is the key here, as we all know, low priced unreliable appliances are the single biggest underlying problem in the service (and sales) side of this industry. So in future I will refrain from glib remarks and try and make a more customer educating reply, which I have done on many occasions, but sometimes the manner in which it is done may not read the same way as it is meant. Same old problem with sentiments not relaying properly on the internet.
That’s not to say we can’t slag the crap off in here though 😉
Dave.
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