DANCE WITH THE DEVIL

Re: DANCE WITH THE DEVIL

RS wrote:And that seems to be it really, the choice is yours, let the insurance companies and manufacturers make a nice profit from your labour or join together and make a difference.

Richard,

Nice post and thanks for that!

Ever since I joined UKW, I too (and many others here as well) have been dripping on about this very situation. The message is clear for even a blind man to see, we in this trade do indeed need to unite :tup:

“95{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}” you say, I would be happy with just 51{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}, that way we are and should be regarded as a ONE VOICE MAJORITY 🙂

To my mind the only way to achieve that currently, is for more and more of us to join UKW, and to spread the word about UKW to your colleagues and associates. Once we all do that and they then realise the potential, then we will increase the numbers daily towards that ultimate goal. Time will tell and the good news I reckon is that it won’t be long either 🙂

Martin

Re: DANCE WITH THE DEVIL

The problem is Richard that a lot of the time we are working to a profit margin on a job that wouldn’t buy a Happy Meal at McDonalds and that is the reality of the situation. Yet for that amount of money we are expected to jump through hoops and have staff on hand to deal with not only the repair but the administration at the back end as well.

In actual fact, in many ways, we do have the manufacturers et all by the short and curlies if we so chose to use that power. Personally I’d rather not have to, I prefer a more amicable route in finding solutions wherever possible as, in effect, that is industrial action which is a thing I have very rarely seen any point in and the success rate of such action is, on the whole, pretty low really. So therefore closer links and trying to explain the situation and the realities of our industry to the manufacturers is a preferable route to take. There is however one small snag there, they don’t seem too willing to talk to us either on here or in private. It could be argued that a short, sharp shock is required to elicit a response but there is more than one way to skin a cat as they say.

There are far, far fewer of us around that meet the criteria for such work and, probably, there will be even less in the not too distant future. Already it has reached a stage where many manufacturers struggle to get nationwide cover.

Spares is a contentious issue at best and some of the mark ups being used currently are, IMO, bordering on the insane with in some cases the retail value of spares worth £100,000 actually costing the manufacturer less that £3,000. Is it right that they should enjoy such margins whilst we work damned hard to get that Happy Meal?

I tnd to agree with your sentiments on the wion/lose thing after all, we’re not insurers we do not work to take risks but to earn a living and, like most other trades, I feel we should be charging accordingly for our time and skills. That does not neccesarily mean using a fixed rate for repairs but there are ways to reach a compromise.

You are perfectly correct in your conclusion though, without some unity in the trade and a little bit of support for each other things will never change or improve all that much. Sure, we’ll win the odd battle along the ways but ultimately we’ll lose the war and, if and when that happens, this trade will die.

K.

Re: DANCE WITH THE DEVIL

Big echoes of when I signed up here – the dawning recognition that there is a whole side of the industry I didn’t know about or understand fully. Not being an employer, it’s really quite a simple way to make a living – the bulk of the work is private; nice little earner with the rental propery work and pubs – get your costings there or there about, make sure someone answers the phone and be honest. Fairly easy apart from the on site sales job – “Of course it’s worth fixing”.

What this thread is not quite saying is that over the years we have descended down to the level of plankton – we are the food stuff for the rest of the industry. Part of this has been that DASA failed to unite and motivate the independent sector for reasons which have been (and are being) discussed elsewhere. Another part is the reluctance of engineers to pool and share, even locally, knowledge, information, weird parts, fault codes – anything really! Crucially, there is the need for the employers to keep their engineers working. There is a valid arguement that it is cheaper to keep an engineer working and make a loss, than to lose the skill set to another field.

UKW has changed that; in here at least, everything is freely and willingly shared. I found this site by typing “error codes” into Google in a fit of pique after a particularly bloody experience with a digital Zanussi washer. Everyone was off at UKW2, so I didn’t get to join for several days (AND lost the job!) but I’ve probably been driving them all bonkers ever since, and enjoying the site, the developing sense of community AND learning a hell of a lot! Knowledge is power, never forget that.

What this thread is doing is acknowledging that gathering of like minds and the growing sense of self belief which we have. The industry is being pushed in OUR direction, not tomorrow but we’ll get there. The sole traders like myself have to recognise this and not devalue the industry. Haven’t done a free call out/estimate in years.

For those of you who have a little bit of time, go back to page 7 & 8 of this forum. Early days; not much chat, veiled references, no-one really speaking freely. The comparison with what goes on now in this forum and the Rumour Mill especiallly, demonstrates quite vividly the growing confidence of the membership.

Personally, I can envisage a time in the not too distant future when (maybe) UKW becomes a work provider in its own right. We have early steps with the Directories – I get a few jobs that way – now eJobs is coming on line – going to be good! A couple of years from now, maybe just about all the independents will be on board and we’ll have a REAL position of strength. It won’t matter WHICH work provider wants a call, a UKW engineer will be able to get there, and we’re all going to earn the £45-50 that Ken will have negotiated for the best co-ordinated, responsible and accountable service available. Dammit, the tools are all here. Do the work, get home, spend 10 minutes on UKW typing in the details, WP can log in and see what’s happened (And how much they’re going to pay 😀 ) – job’s a good ‘un.

OR. We can bumble along being a bunch of disorganised, self-interested, selfish and insecure POOR workers, wondering where the real profit’s going to come from.

A parting thought – somebody name a plumber who will enter your home for less than £50. Bearing in mind that this is Yorkshire and “£50 were 3 weeks wages when I were a lad……”

I don’t think this is an unreasonable vision of the future and with time and effort, probably achievable. Whether this how the rest of you see UKW going I don’t know, but I like it!

Blimey, haven’t done a late nighter like this one for a while, but I don’t half feel better for it!

Regards, Discuss, Enjoy,
Chris.

Re: DANCE WITH THE DEVIL

My apologies Richard for the use of the word, militant, it was not intended to describe you as a person or your view. Whilst you are correct I don’t subscribe to the view it is only because I understand the problems.

To better our lot and project ourselves as “grown ups” will put us in front of the spin and untruths of some work providers. Dialogue is the key, trust is lock and we have both.

Kevin

Re: DANCE WITH THE DEVIL

RS wrote:

Now back to it. So we have agreed that the way forward is through further dialogue with all concerned parties, very well next time you talk to the representatives of the manufacturers ask them for me why they think that there call out charge of around £80ish is ok but the thought of paying a decent rate to contractors is ridiculous? Also ask them if they get away with not paying their staff or cutting their wages due to a BER or an uncompleted repair? Ask them why they charge you for the privilege of ordering their well overpriced spares, or what is so important about fault codes that they cannot be freely available to the trade.

and also why they think it is acceptable to keep customers waiting weeks for service ,Speaking of half rate for a BER I once had a conversation with a service manager of a large manufacturer who told me ,That he paid half rate as it only took half the time to do a report ,And he wouldnt be moved on that. Interestingly I later found out that he was ex Hotpoint ,previous to that he was with another manufacturer have you noticed how the same names keep popping up at different places and they all seem to take there perception /misconception of the industry with them ,so the same attitudes prevail throughout ,And if that is the attitude that says its alright to treat agents as mushrooms (Kept in the dark and fed bu***hit) then we have a problem ,Or if it is the attitudes of MFI,CDA,D&G and the like we are treated with a modicum of respect which we then reciprocate with a higher level of service
hope that made some sense

RS wrote:
These are my view and in no way representative of anyone else.

Richard Scanlon Snr
Actually Richard I think you are spot on thank you

Lawrence

Re: DANCE WITH THE DEVIL

I think that with a few simple questions Richard has absolutely hit the nail very squarely on the head here. In fact, some of the points made by all are outstanding and it appears that maybe we are starting to wake up to ourselves after all.

Like Richard I would also like to see some new input on this, I think it’s a cracking thread and one that people should contribute to with their own thoughts. Whether you agree or not I’d love to get different takes on some of the points raised in this.

Let’s face it, if this is the calibre of people in this trade I’m damned sure we can do better than we currently are and I happen to know that most service engineers, particularly of the self employed variety, are generally pretty smart people.

To train costs a lot of money, fact! I was recently talking to an IT company about some software, the software was not that expensive all things considered, but the cost of training was just astoundingly expensive, that’s why no-one wants to do it. But as we all know, the cost of training up staff only to have them pinched or bought by another company is not only expensive but also potentially very damaging to the business as well. Just another reason why we are not training on top of the financial constraints placed upon us.

Kevin rightly points out that, in actual fact, on the whole it is actually cheaper for a manufacturer to contract out the work as well as being a lot less hassle, because it then becomes someone else’s problem.

It is also correct that the tide appears to be changing to be yet again in our favour, use that to your advantage. There is work out there, decent work and that which is not decent will have to become so or it simply won’t be done in time.

Lawrence, you should post more. 😉

K.