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OK, so I am not privy to the trade section of these forums but, as a journalist that works mainly in the automotive sector, independent whitegood repairers are obviously voicing concern that an increasing number of manufacturers appear to be severely restricting service, hard/software and coding information to anybody, other than their own employees.
Surely these actions fall within the legal remit of anti-competitive behaviour? Is this something that the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) is (or should be) addressing?
Obviously, within the automotive sector, Block Exemption has made a huge difference to the industry and independent garages, by fostering competition and giving the consumer more options and better value for money. We have also seen diagnostic sockets being standardised, as well as fault codes, allowing for generic scanners to come into the market that can communicate with virtually all makes and models. Is this something that washing machine repairers dream of, I wonder?
However, with a high number of domestic appliances being scrapped prematurely, because of a repair being uneconomical (possibly influenced heavily by alleged lack of competition, restriction of technical information and poor spare parts back-up), are there not further actions that the independent repairer industry can take, or legal arguments against such behaviour?
It seems to me that the whitegood makers’ attitudes to opening up service and repair information is fifteen years behind that of motor vehicle manufacturers, at least. Or, am I deluded? Are things really that bad?
Rob
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
Hi Rob,
We have tried here and through the WTA time and time again to get people to listen, wake up and do something about this as you are correct, it’s very unfair in my opinion.
DEFRA, the OFT before its demise, WRAP, the press… nobody cares it seems and, certainly they do not seem to care enough to do anything about it.
Meanwhile, owners are just held to ransom as are insurance companies as well as independent repairers.
Until someone takes notice and does something about it, people will just keep on getting ripped off by the practice.
K.
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
robmarshall wrote:It seems to me that the whitegood makers’ attitudes to opening up service and repair information is fifteen years behind that of motor vehicle manufacturers, at least. Or, am I deluded? Are things really that bad?
You’re not deluded at all Rob, in fact your assumptions pretty spot on. The motor industry was subjected to massive government and EC lobbying by their various trade associations in eventually securing a level playing field. In that same time frame motor vehicles became more complex to maintain and expensive to replace. Whereas white goods have gone in the complete opposite direction, cheap, shoddy, simplistic contruction techniques guaranteeing short life cycles and increased consumer demand for replacements.White goods manufacturing giants operating multi billion dollar worldwide manufacturing and distribution. Huge corporations with far reaching and influential interests spread across the globe.
If your car or truck breaks down you need to get it fixed, there is little or no no option. If your washing machine fails however various options are open to you. Although, and thanks entirely to those clever manufacturers, they have produced a product that is cheap to buy, gives an average life cycle of 4 -5 years and easy to dispose of. They even have contributed to the cost of disposal, a win win situation for them all the way.
Consumers were instrumental in getting the motor trade to wake up against the various rip-off manufacturers. The many trade associations and consumer groups combined to rectify that situation through government legislation. White goods consumers on the other hand voice little concerns. That fact so emphatically demonstrated by their lack of concern over the many and various life threatening incidents of appliances catching fire. 100’s of 1,000’s have on going recall notices yet only a fraction are rectified.
The ever hungry consumer demand for cheap appliances marches ever forward, the supply limitless.
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
Cars cost thousands. Appliances don’t. There are a lot more independent garages than appliance repairers. It may not be right, but it’s a factor. Mechanics tend to have a qualification and are regulated, there are not the same controls for White goods people, only recently a qualification has been available to the industry and very few have it. Many brands who withhold info do so with the excuse that unqualified people could be let loose on equipment, that only their employees are qualified or suitably trained to work on. Obviously that frustrates independent engineers who whilst have no white goods qualifications relating to white goods, have received internal training or have an electrical qualification are perfectly competent. Although there is one major company sending out their delivery drivers to repair white goods, they get a few days install training and then their deemed competent to install cookers, now there let loose on repairs. The brands are not stupid, it suits there business but they also have a responsibility to there product reputation. There are also people who have no electrical related qualifications, I’ve meet people from ex bus drivers to dodgy car salesmen (he got banned from here), in fact there is nothing stopping a guy leaving Asda checkout on Friday and Monday he could be let loose on your washing machine.
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
Gentlemen,
It’s a Monday morning and I have a severe case of man-flu, so sorry if I ramble a bit…Thank-you for your kind replies and for educating me about the repair industry.
I am not claiming to know more about your profession that you. Having considered the replies to my original post, I still think that the motor car and whitegoods repair industries are closer-related than is imagined.
While I agree that whitegoods have become increasingly ‘shoddily’ made, they have also become more complicated. Have cars gone the same way? Yes, I think that they have, although to a far lesser extent. I view the pinnacle of automotive reliability (including rust protection) as residing in the late 1990s. Since then, dependability has gone downhill, overall. Fuel injector, turbocharger, DPF, EGR issues were all virtually unheard of 15-20 years-ago. Even bumpers, headlamps etc have become considerably flimsier, although that is for other reasons that just cost-cutting.
Likewise, the electronics, within a typical washing machine, have become so much more complex and the software coding information seems to be held tightly to the manufacturers’ chests. As mentioned before, this has been outlawed in relation to the automotive sector. Therefore, has a legal precedent been set, I wonder?
However, if the tools were available more freely to independent repairers, would this benefit both repairer and consumer, by making the repair easier to diagnose and quicker? It certainly is a help with cars but, if you do not have the tool, you are at the mercy of someone who does. Thankfully, this is not always the main dealer. – but it seems to be with washer makers.
Another difference appears to be that separate whitegoods makers have diverse codes and socket profiles, so is making a single diagnostic tool to interrogate all washing machines, fridges et al almost impossible? Is that a fair assumption?
Like car makers, I understand that whitegood manufacturers are also multi-billion pound conglomerates, with global reaches. Single companies also own multiple brand names, Indesit/Hotpoint, Candy/Hoover et al, which is the same with motor cars, Tata/JLR, VW/SEAT/Audi/Skoda etc. However, the waste situation differs slightly, in that cars are comprehensively de-polluted and recycled –but are washing machines, etc, with their virtually non-recyclable outer plastic tubs? I think that this is where the mantra of making such appliances easier to repair has a fair argument.
I agree that whitegoods consumers might not voice their dissatisfaction with the same volume as those of car owners but is there a trade body, (maybe UK Whitegoods can do this), which can pump out press releases, to help inform and cajole the public and, possibly, influence legislation? Maybe naming and ‘shaming’ manufacturers might work, after they are given a fair right-to-reply, of course. Is your repair talent becoming obsolete?
Surprisingly, a ‘mechanic’ can also walk out of a supermarket checkout job and into a garage to work on someone’s brakes. Mechanics qualifications tend to be voluntary – you do not actually need them for a job – unless some kind of qualification is required by an establishment’s public liability insurance policy. Basically, any one of us could set up as an independent mechanic/car salesman tomorrow. Again, another parallel.
Car makers also train their own technicians but, get this, an OE training centre that I know also trains mechanics of their fleet customers. I will see if I can find out if there is a legal obligation for this. Also, with mechanics/garages, any regulation is voluntary at the moment, excepting the statutory legal rights of the customer, Sales of Goods Act 1979, et al.
Finally, here’s an argument that you might view as a little hard to justify but hear me out. I agree that a new car possesses a higher ticket price than a typical whitegood. Yet, the average age of a car in the UK is around 7 years-old. This may make the average insured value around £5,000. If you tot-up the insured value of all whitegoods in a typical domestic household (all of which tend to be newer), I wouldn’t be surprised if you get moderately close to this figure.
R
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
robmarshall wrote:I agree that whitegoods consumers might not voice their dissatisfaction with the same volume as those of car owners but is there a trade body, (maybe UK Whitegoods can do this), which can pump out press releases, to help inform and cajole the public and, possibly, influence legislation? Maybe naming and ‘shaming’ manufacturers might work, after they are given a fair right-to-reply, of course.
Your perception toward the “public….influencing legislation” is sadly misplaced. To the contrary, the general public at large are apathetic toward the frailties of the modern domestic appliance. They readily accept that most are merely short term investments and easily replaced. Even national TV and media warnings of the recent Beko and Bosch fires has had no effect whatsoever on their sales. In fact both Beko and Bosch have increased their sales since, they can’t keep up with demand. The “naming and shaming” had the very opposite effect.
Finally, “Legislation” also results in regulation which in turn makes it even more costly for those that can be repaired to get repaired.
I hope that is sufficient feed-back for you to realise there are no similarities between the motor trade and white goods. 😉
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
Martin wrote:I hope that is sufficient feed-back for you to realise there are no similarities between the motor trade and white goods. 😉
In your opinion. 😉
I feel that a block exemption such as in the car industry would be a good thing and would allow free competition in the after-market service of appliances.
Without that, some manufacturers if they are so inclined, can do as they please in regard to servicing information for both trade and public alike.
That means that it is not a fair market in regard to servicing as we know only too well as some manufacturers choose to withhold information and/or restrict the ability to service through other means.
Which is exactly the reason why that the block exemption was put in place for the car industry.
K.
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
As a response to Martin’s useful reply, I did not mean that the public needs to complain to change legislation (you are bang-on, many are apathetic, so it would not get very far) but the repair industry needs some kind of trade body that might be able to pull together to make something happen, possibly using some of the arguments that I have indicated already.
The other point about legislation is not aimed at the repairers but at the OEs (manufacturers) to share technical information and training. Potentially, that should decrease repair costs and should increase the possibility of an appliance being repaired.
As Kwatt says, the whitegoods industry seems to be far more monopolised than the motor industry (and there are parallels, as explained already).
Looking forward, can you see a future for independent repairers, unless something is done to break down what appears to be a monopoly?
R
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
I’m no expert on the car industry, but a quick Google search returns far more college training courses for the car industry than whitegoods . I just did my area and returned 30 centres in a 10 mile radius doing on average 4 courses per establishment. For whitegoods nothing.
I annoyingly mention training and regulation often, for me until my industry acknowledges that safety is a big issue, we bang on about how badly some brands react to design flaws that have caused death, yet see no issue in a person with no understanding of what they are doing being sent to fit the modified parts, l know of several incidents of Beko modifications being done dangerously.
If we had available the number of courses that are available to the motor industry we might just be able to convince the industry and govt into supporting us.Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
Trouble is lee….
Cars
Costs thousands of pounds at least (other than old jalopies).
People have pride in them, look after them, get them serviced and so on.
You take it to the garage/dealership at your own cost.
You pay £40-100 an hour to get it fixed.
Appliances
You pay a few hundred pounds for one.
People don’t care about them in many if not most cases, it’s just an oversized toaster, a tool that there’s usually no pride in ownership.
You need to get someone to come round to repair it.
You pay £40-80 for however long it takes.
It’s worth training car mechanics as there’s money in it, there’s no money in appliances or in repairing them so, nobody cares. And I suspect that due to that there’s no training courses as there’s nobody wanting to pay for them.
K.
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
Absolutely. Although some large service companies are struggling to find staff, take Knowhow and the college based apprenticeship programme. Small steps may encourage a small change.
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
I overlooked this point you made Rob….
robmarshall wrote:Likewise, the electronics, within a typical washing machine, have become so much more complex and the software coding information seems to be held tightly to the manufacturers’ chests. As mentioned before, this has been outlawed in relation to the automotive sector. Therefore, has a legal precedent been set, I wonder?
I venture to suggest the “electronics” are far from complex though I would agree that access and coding information is withheld by the majority of manufacturers. To outlaw that practice would be welcome news indeed. Though right now the major problem the trade suffers is not only lack of technical information but that you can’t even get spare parts information. Many of the major manufacturers restrict access to schematic part diagrams and part numbers. Common parts information between models also restricted information. Spare parts wholesalers collude with manufacturers and together dictate the resale price therefore much restricting a free and open market. Price disparity between trade and retail negligible. Very often spare parts wholesalers retail their stock on-line far cheaper than they sell it to the trade. So a ‘level playing field’ looks more like the outline of the Himalayas.
The further you delve the worse the outlook appears. Meanwhile the manufacturers can’t make enough new appliances and the Chinese are coming into the white goods market BIG TIME…..!!!
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
Martin wrote:Though right now the major problem the trade suffers is not only lack of technical information but that you can’t even get spare parts information. Many of the major manufacturers restrict access to schematic part diagrams and part numbers.
This is true and what info you can get is often obfuscated.
And yet, you can go online and find schematics and part numbers et all for a gas boiler and so on, it is a bit crazy really.
Martin wrote:Common parts information between models also restricted information. Spare parts wholesalers collude with manufacturers and together dictate the resale price therefore much restricting a free and open market.
Uhm, Martin… that’s known as a cartel which is highly illegal under EU law and, if caught the fines are enough to make global corporations weep with pain.
I have also seen not a single shred of evidence that would lead to that conclusion.
There are many parts that I would agree are priced, will we say, unrealistically. I would also agree that there are manufacturers and/or suppliers that may “hike” prices on some lines but that’s about it really.
K.
Re: How can heavy restriction of repair information be legal
Pay is a joke in this industry.
Here is an example Hoover are recruiting a Finished Goods Buyer for the Baumatic brand. You need 1 yr experience in product management direct procurement, fluent in Chinese an advantage, it literate, work as part of an international team, knowledge of factory management, ability in commercial negotiations, frequent European and Asian travel.
Duties include manage suppliers, negotiate general conditions of supply based on cost,quality, service level, verification and management of suppliers reliability, purchase budget control, establishment of partnership with suppliers, coop with R&D marketing and quality depts, continuous scouting of new suppliers and alternatives.Salary up to £28,000.00 pa depending on experience.
Maybe the 2 is wrong and should be a 4.
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