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I’ve been a regular participant within the Trade Forums in both reading, and in many cases, answering posts from trade members seeking help over various appliance faults and issues they are experiencing trouble with. Sadly in many such cases it appears the ‘postee’ hasn’t carried out the basic electrical checks by using the all important INSULATION TESTER (a.k.a “Megger”, “Meggar” and some even been know to refer to it as a “Mega” – whatever, same thing in any language).
Whilst not giving specific examples or ‘pointing the finger’ at any individual it is glaringly obvious there is a whole bunch of guys out there that simply don’t do their job properly. Without using an insulation tester as a basic tool then fault finding is rather like Gillian McKeith looking for stars in a pitch black tunnel. :rolls: The only options then left to the individual is to blindly grope in the dark for a while or make a guess as to where trouble lies or shout & scream in the UKW forums for help to ‘get me out of here!’
If only the individual had got (and used correctly) an insulation tester and carried out the very basic checks and tests, all of the potential troubles and trauma could have been easily avoided. To walk away from a potential ‘job’ scratching your head in wonder and confusion. Then stab a guess to your customer as to what you ‘think’ is the fault could then turn into self-inflicted hastle or at worst a lost money maker.:(
(Fact) – If Ken Watt could get £1 through his web site for every trade member that simply asks “Is it the PCB?” he would be up there with Simon Cowell in Britains rich listees.
All this can be avoided if you get on your hands and knees and hook up your insulation tester on the motor or the heater or pump or the compressor (or whatever) and, even simpler still, in many cases, just short out the live & neutral with one connector and the other on the earthpin of the 13amp plugtop will tell all.:D
Postees readily admit that they haven’t checked the heater element with a Megger. (The truth may be more basic than that (I suspect) in that they neither own one or know how to use it.:()
And had they done so on site at the time the fault would be all too easy to detect and the need to go onto UKW and ask “Is it the PCB?” avoided at a stroke.:idea:Come on guys, there’s no shame in not knowing the basics of electrical testing and fault diagnosis. We have all at some time or another had to stab a guess as to the problem. But the fact is that without carrying such a basic essential testing tool, you are doing yourself and your customers no favours whatsoever.:evil:
In case you missed my earlier posting on the subject regarding Insulation Testers, you can easily use THIS LINK to download a .pdf file about Basic Appliance Testing For Appliances……oh go on, take a look at it, and I sincerely hope your part in this trade becomes easier for your new found knowledge. Get one, use it daily, your job will be so much the better for it……..trust me. 8)
Re: Bad work practices still rife in trade
Bang on the money there Martin i never go anywhere without my meggar and loop tester if checking an appliance .This was one thing Graham Dixon always drummed (pardon the pun) in to us on his training course.
I have read many threads where an insulation test has not been done.It’s a “MUST ” to carry one and to do to help fault finding.
Shaun.
Re: Bad work practices still rife in trade
It’s the first thing I use and the last when repairing / diagnosing.
Dangerous for the DIY peeps without this tool and the ability to use and evaluate it’s readings. 😯
Plus loop test of course which is equally as important.Re: Bad work practices still rife in trade
Martin your right on the Money with this, I have come across many service engineers who do not actually own a Megger, even worse they fail to see how (a) it could make their job easier and (b) how it would make the world a safer place for them and their customers ! (c) how it might keep them out of court facing a manslaughter charge !
The story I usually hear when I ever mention this is that ” Well I have never needed one ! been doing the job 20 years never really had a use for it !
Talk about living in a Cocoon ! what planet are these Engineers on ?
I have used a Megger ever since I was trained and its one of my most useful tools as opposed to the bloody big hammer and brute force these Cocoon Merchants prefer.
Go Figure !
Yes I agree with you spimps I am not too worried about those in the trade not doing the full electrical tests as most are former manufacture trained engineers so are at least aware of the risks.
What worries me is encouraging the gereral public / strangers to get involved in repairs when you have no idea of there skill level if any and if they are aware of the the risks.
boselecta wrote:What worries me is encouraging the gereral public / strangers to get involved in repairs when you have no idea of there skill level if any and if they are aware of the the risks.
No-one actively encourages them and, anyway, they’d do it anyway regardless of the potential risks. Trade opinion is irrelevant as they’d just go to DIYNOT or one of the paid services from supposed experts who couldn’t give a stuff beyond a percentage from an affiliate link to a spares supplier.
Is it not better to advocate safety and steer in the right direction than to remain silent?
Which is the mentality I apply to trade as well as public.
Is it also not better to promote logical diagnosis over throwing parts at a problem? Any idiot can go in and swap out bits till they get it right. This is what I refer to as “parts bingo”, you swap bits till it works and shout “BINGO, I’m a genius and fixed it”… yeah, okay then, you’re so clever.
Same thing, different spin. But exactly what Martin is actually pointing at if I’m not mistaken, I will happily be corrected if wrong Martin.
And yes Martin, if I was paid for every time I had a “it must be the PCB” conversation I would indeed be much better off, but heh ho.
Fact is, 35{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} or higher of the PCBs we get returned are not faulty in any way.
Amica reckon that there’s is 55{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}+ not faulty.
That’s a damning statistic in either event. I will allow you to draw your own conclusions and expand if you really want me to.
I would say this though, some repairers could learn a whole hell of a lot from Martin, IADOM, Penguin45, Johnmac11, Eastlmark and many others on how to actually diagnose problems. You really should listen to these “old hands” on this stuff as they do actually know what they’re doing and talking about on this subject, even I have the good sense to respect that knowledge.
K.
kwatt wrote:
Is it not better to advocate safety and steer in the right direction than to remain silent?
K.I agree using test equipment is a MUST.
Maybe its just me then but after carefull thought I personally feel uncomfortable about giving techncial advice to someone who has probably very little technical knowledge and certainly doesn’t know what a megger even looks like.
Safest to advise the public to go through trained professional repairers, my opinion only.
boselecta wrote:Maybe its just me then but after carefull thought I personally feel uncomfortable about giving techncial advice to someone who has probably very little technical knowledge and certainly doesn’t know what a megger even looks like.
Safest to advise the public to go through trained professional repairers, my opinion only.
Some of the public are better than some of the trade, some of them WAY better than some “traders”.
To say that is, I would say, a bit off to underestimate people in that way and class them all as clueless as, many of them most certainly are not.
Just as some “in the trade” clearly are clueless. Perhaps we should insist they also call a “trained professional” as well? 😉
K.
kwatt wrote:
boselecta wrote:
What worries me is encouraging the gereral public / strangers to get involved in repairs when you have no idea of there skill level if any and if they are aware of the the risks.No-one actively encourages them and, anyway, they’d do it anyway regardless of the potential risks. Trade opinion is irrelevant as they’d just go to DIYNOT or one of the paid services from supposed experts who couldn’t give a stuff beyond a percentage from an affiliate link to a spares supplier.
Is it not better to advocate safety and steer in the right direction than to remain silent?
Which is the mentality I apply to trade as well as public.
Is it also not better to promote logical diagnosis over throwing parts at a problem? Any idiot can go in and swap out bits till they get it right. This is what I refer to as “parts bingo”, you swap bits till it works and shout “BINGO, I’m a genius and fixed it”… yeah, okay then, you’re so clever.
Same thing, different spin. But exactly what Martin is actually pointing at if I’m not mistaken, I will happily be corrected if wrong Martin.
And yes Martin, if I was paid for every time I had a “it must be the PCB” conversation I would indeed be much better off, but heh ho.
Fact is, 35{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} or higher of the PCBs we get returned are not faulty in any way.
Amica reckon that there’s is 55{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}+ not faulty.
That’s a damning statistic in either event. I will allow you to draw your own conclusions and expand if you really want me to.
I would say this though, some repairers could learn a whole hell of a lot from Martin, IADOM, Penguin45, Johnmac11, Eastlmark and many others on how to actually diagnose problems. You really should listen to these “old hands” on this stuff as they do actually know what they’re doing and talking about on this subject, even I have the good sense to respect that knowledge.,
K.ive read some very similar stats
samsung claim a high percentage of pcbs arent faultyi wont lie, u all know where i work…
however , its infuriates me when i go to a parts job with 5+ parts… are they really all faulty?
i use my meter , and megger on every job, and fault find properly
in reality, do 5 parts faill all at the same time?
ur all right, proper testing is imperitive.. for costing, efficiency, and most importantly, safety
helo_75 wrote:samsung claim a high percentage of pcbs arent faulty
They’re probably right but, I think I know when Samsung are lying.
They’re mouths move or their fingers are a tapping! 😆
Sorry, couldn’t resist another dig at them. But they don’t exactly do themselves any favours.
helo_75 wrote:in reality, do 5 parts faill all at the same time?
No.
K.
kwatt wrote:This is what I refer to as “parts bingo”, you swap bits till it works and shout “BINGO, I’m a genius and fixed it”… yeah, okay then, you’re so clever.
Same thing, different spin. But exactly what Martin is actually pointing at if I’m not mistaken
That’s exactly right Ken, my point directly aimed at those that are ‘in the trade’ that have little grasp as to the vital importance of using an insulation tester. That, as a result of not using one, blindly guess as to what may be wrong with the machine. Checking elements and windings just using a 9 volt multimeter is like licking your finger and holding it up in the air to find out which direction the wind is blowing. Or dipping your elbow in babies bathwater and other such analogies.
It’s interesting and gratifying for me to realise that, since I created that .pdf file on Basic Electrical Safety For Appliances several trade members have been prompted by that and have gone out and bought one. It has made a great deal of difference for them, as well it should, since that time I’m sure. Even more gratifying is that two members to my certain knowledge are now ‘preaching the Gospel’ to other trade members in the Trade Technical Forum by asking them in turn “Have you Meggered the dryer elements?” The reply has very often been…….“er?…No I didn’t” 😳 My assumption on reading those and other similar posts is that that confession means likely as not they don’t even own one? And hence my reasoning for opening this thread on the subject once again, highlighting the problem and prompting further thought (and even debate).:D
Note to Ken: If you can’t cop a £1 for “is it the PCB” then how about buying a load off Meggers and flogging them at ‘special members trade rates? 💡
Re: Bad work practices still rife in trade
neilsukwg
Metrel make a mulitfunction tester. As do Megger and a number of other manufacturers.
When carrying out EFLI measurements at sockets etc, please may I remind everyone (sorry if I’m teaching all to suck eggs 😉 ) to verify prescence of a main earth and protective main bonding as well as watching out for 30mA RCDs.
Regards
Re: Bad work practices still rife in trade
Brains wrote:
When carrying out EFLI measurements at sockets etc, please may I remind everyone …. to verify prescence of a main earth and protective main bonding
:hmm:
Isn’t that saying the same thing twice?
Mike.
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