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Anybody interested.
http://www.cityandguilds.com/Courses-an … -servicing
A current White Goods qualification.
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Re: City & Guilds 2359.
lee8 wrote:Anybody interested?
Searched Poole, Bournemouth, Southampton, (Eastleigh College used to do it) and London.
No results at all. So clearly no interest from the colleges. Why? Trained engineers cost money. Training engineers costs a lot of money. If there was top money in white goods repairs, they’d be falling over themselves to run the course.
Reality check time..
Untrained employed engineer gets basic wage (not great) and achieves mediocre results. Lots of guessing and parts substitution goes on. WP or OEM in turn pays more in the long run for parts and recalls….not an ideal situation…
OK…..the alternative….
….C & G trained engineer makes same basic wage yet produces a much higher standard of work, diagnostics, professionalism and a pair of metaphorical C & G braces on which he can pull and strut his superior stuff.
They still make the same wage…always have, always will….and it is their employers or WP’s that will win. Customer service and satisfaction? Not a tangible asset… but it is the holy grail of any service industry. WP’s want it; customers want it – yet don’t want to pay much for it.
I replied as someone who wanted regulation in this sector but now I am thinking twice. I am independent, professional and reliable and my reputation is what I work to improve. It is one thing to fashion a knife to cut out the chaff from the wheat when experience tells us that this knife can also be turned around and used to cut your own throat.
If you think it’ll work Lee; more power to you. Best of luck filling a phone booth until you get the rates up. Way up….
Steve.
Re: City & Guilds 2359.
You know lee, you must be one of the most annoying people in the world to live with, you’re like a dog with a bone on this.
You think that some sort of regulation will solve all the problems of this industry in respect to the service side of things.
It won’t.
It will create a series of unintended consequences that will cause massive fallout because, regardless of how well you train a donkey, it’s still a donkey.
If the trainee is lazy, training will not make said trainee not be lazy, which also means sloppy. All the training in the world will not alter that.
If the trainee is stupid but, is trained to pass an exam, they will pass the exam. Doesn’t make them any smarter, just makes them a trained idiot.
I could bore you all night with examples from this industry from top to bottom like you spout but, will it change anything, probably not. Sure a few that are a bit smarter will read the anecdotes and get it, learn and be better for it. The rest will likely think I’m just being an a$$ and slagging them off, which I’m not trying to do but, if you don’t want to learn that’s an easy out.
Now, take this away from our walk of life (again) if, by your notion, that training is the cure for all ills then we wouldn’t have bad lawyers, electricians, plumbers, doctors, civil engineers, managers with MBAs… I could go on and on. Yet in every single profession, without exception, there are bad ones and, there are cowboys. This, irrespective of the scrutiny that they face throughout their professional life so even ongoing monitoring fails.
It makes it harder to get into the profession, yes.
It pushes up costs both to enter and to get the service in offer, yes.
It pushes up the rates, yes, but only until you pass the point of market saturation then prices are driven down as competition increases.
Simple economics. As basic as I can make it.
But let me expand on that a little, you are talking about ramping up costs in an industry in which costs are being forced down by consumer expectations yet the same expectations demands a higher level of service. That can’t work, the two are diametrically opposed. Simple economics.
So, how are you to convince manufacturers who’s budgets are under pressure, revenues are on a downward spiral and are facing ever increasing legislative demands that they should invest in better after sales service when, there is (for them) little value in it other than to make the problem go away?
Likewise, how are you going to convince service guys to invest in this when, there is no apparent demand from their customers, both commercial or direct, for such a requirement? All they want is a decent service at as low a cost as possible, they don’t give two hoots about your qualification or lack thereof.
In short, unless you can actually present a commercially sound and viable argument I fear that as Steve eloquently put, you will struggle to fill a phone box with willing participants.
I too, years back, when it was a DASA thing, thought that this was the answer but experience has taught me better to think this way. I didn’t need a college course, just a brain in gear.
You can’t really teach people to get their brain in gear, only encourage them to do so. They either will or, they’ll not. Certification will make no difference to that.
K.
Re: City & Guilds 2359.
Thanks for both your opinions.
The course is designed for school leavers, the next generation hopefully will have a better grasp of learning than the current/previous generation, which hopefully will not produce the fu88 wit mentality you point out.
Its true about a donkey, hopefully we can breed horses instead.
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Re: City & Guilds 2359.
lee8 wrote:Thanks for both your opinions.
The course is designed for school leavers, the next generation hopefully will have a better grasp of learning than the current/previous generation, which hopefully will not produce the fu88 wit mentality you point out.
Its true about a donkey, hopefully we can breed horses instead.
I give up.
If it worked, Lee. it would have been done. It hasn’t because it doesn’t. If you believe that this trade is full of fu88wits as you put it, then your superior expertise should have bought you a footballer’s mansion and all the trappings by now. In which case you wouldn’t be frequenting a lowly fu88wit forum like this.
I think that this trade does really well considering the pitiful lack of support we get from the manufacturers. They could help us; they could train us; but they won’t. We struggle along and on average keep the wheels turning and the customers more or less happy. We do a good job even compared to people with degrees and intensive training behind them.
Please stop insulting folk in this industry; it’s bad enough for Watchdog et al to do it, let alone one of our own. Tell us what you do and who you are; tell us how you are qualified to make the sweeping statements that you regularly make.
If you can do that, then we will respect you for it. If you can’t, then you best just wait for the Billy Goats Gruff to come trapping across your bridge….Steve.
Re: City & Guilds 2359.
I’m direct for sure, never made that a secret.
Progress, change whatever you want to badge it can and will happen.
It may come from brands, it may come from WP’s or it may come from another form completely different or it may be a previously tried and failed attempt reworked and slim lined.
Time will tell you.
Would you like some famous quotes, maybe about Rome, building etc etc or assumptions.
If its failed before, is it really due to impossibility or is it due to fu88 wits who frankly could not run a bath.
Surely its worthy of disscussion, supporting an industry with competent people is something to be encouraged.
The brands im currently working are willing to increase there wage scales for a competent, effective workforce.
If you’ve not had that conversation, is that due to your opinion or the fact you just don’ have access.
Think about it.;-)
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Re: City & Guilds 2359.
lee8 wrote:I’m direct for sure, never made that a secret.
Not a problem ,lots of people on here are direct
lee8 wrote:If its failed before, is it really due to impossibility or is it due to fu88 wits who frankly could not run a bath.
Perhaps look at why it failed, could it be the need wasn’t there in the first place ?
lee8 wrote:Surely its worthy of disscussion, supporting an industry with competent people is something to be encouraged.
It is worthy of discussion but the best way to start a discussion is to respect the other sides opinion and to avoid demeaning them in ways such as this …
lee8 wrote:If you’ve not had that conversation, is that due to your opinion or the fact you just don’ have access.
Think about it.;-)The “I know something you don’t” attitude doesn’t help you Lee.
It makes you sound smug and an Ar$e,Now you may very well be a smug Ar$e who is direct, I don’t know.
What I do know is a piece of paper does not an engineer make.
My experience of vocational qualifications is that you are taught to pass the qualification criteria not necessarily to learn the subject in depth .
With regards to regulation be careful what you wish for
All progress is precarious, and the solution of one problem brings us face to face with another problem.
Martin Luther King Jr.What can seem a new road forwards can very quickly turn in to a rut
Re: City & Guilds 2359.
having done some training recently i would say it has some benefits as your never to old to learn (apart from ken)?.
the cons was the cost – ie the time of the road , traveling , hotels .. the last course i had 3 days off , 24 – 30 jobs .
what would be a better is decent relevant technical advice when you need it , ie in the customers house.
if you have basic fault finding skills you will always trace the fault , but throw in electronics, manufacturing errors – faulty parts is not so simple ..
as much as manufacturers and w/ps would like – engineers are not walking encyclopedias who have every service manual and fault code for every appliance.
im pretty sure that if the engineer was given the right advice/help as and when required we would have fewer write offs exchanges etc ..
engineers are not robots and only have a limited time to diagnose and repair normally arrive at the appliance to find out wrong fault has been reported or there’s another fault that customer forgot to mention.. or the fault is vague or intermittent or customer hasn’t a clue how to use it and thinks its faulty .
manufacturers and w/ps tend to forget what engineers have to put up with whilst doing there daily job.
invest in decent tech teams who are able to offer relevant info when its required would be a lot cheaper than training ..
when i say decent tech teams i mean dont put ex engineer on a help desk who hasnt seen an appliance for 5 years and reads from a service manual.
ally
Re: City & Guilds 2359.
Please read this the right way, I am not having a dig per say but merely trying to highlight some issues that we need to face up to, whether we all like it or not.
So I’m going to put on the nasty manufacturer hat as someone who has first hand experience and, a lot of it, of working tech support.
You can apply this to the IT industry and probably others just as easily.
funkyboogy wrote:having done some training recently i would say it has some benefits as your never to old to learn (apart from ken)?.
I learn every day and make no bones at all about the fact that I do not know everything. And, I acknowledge fully that I am far from perfect.
I also acknowledge, unlike many I have encountered in all walks of life, that information based on experience is valuable but, it is not the be all and end all. If you get trapped thinking the way things worked even a few years ago and don’t keep up to date, you’re about as useful as a horse and cart in a digital age.
Times move on, they will not stop for you. Adapt or die.
It’s called evolution.
funkyboogy wrote:what would be a better is decent relevant technical advice when you need it , ie in the customers house.
Uh huh.
I’ve had phone calls asking how you get the back off a tumble dryer. The best one was, “How do I get the lid off a tumble dryer…”. This from a supposed “engineer”.
The level of stupidity at times surpasses all reason and, sadly, you have to work to the lowest common denominator.
funkyboogy wrote:if you have basic fault finding skills you will always trace the fault , but throw in electronics, manufacturing errors – faulty parts is not so simple ..
I’m sorry Ally but I think that’s a bit of a cop out.
They all perform the same basic functions. You can test those functions without any tech support at all in many cases.
It does however involve the use of your brain, perhaps Google and a bit of effort. I’ve come across many that fail on all three.
If I was allowed to charge repairers for every time that they ordered a PCB only to find that that wasn’t the fault I could do well out of that.
The reason for that is that they base their knowledge on information from the 1980’s and 90’s when PCBs were often an issue. They are not so much now but many still insist on throwing a new one in the machine. Mainly, it is assumed because they do not understand them and refuse to learn about them and how they work.
So, they are the “go-to” solution because if the machine is doing something that they don’t understand, well, that has to be the problem doesn’t it?
The public do that as well and, they get decried as idiots for doing it. Hello!
funkyboogy wrote:as much as manufacturers and w/ps would like – engineers are not walking encyclopedias who have every service manual and fault code for every appliance.
Nope.
But the lazy ones don’t even bother to look up a single scrap of information before they go to a call, even if it’s available to them.
They do however call up tech and ask… “I’ve got a XXX doing YYY, what parts should I fit?”
It may as well by a member of the public. They can do that too.
funkyboogy wrote:im pretty sure that if the engineer was given the right advice/help as and when required we would have fewer write offs exchanges etc ..
Yes, if they bother to look at it. As illustrated, many don’t.
Whether it’s just stupidity, laziness or whatever I don’t know but I gotta say, when you get asked dumb questions you begin to wonder if these people should be allowed a tool box.
funkyboogy wrote:engineers are not robots and only have a limited time to diagnose and repair normally arrive at the appliance to find out wrong fault has been reported or there’s another fault that customer forgot to mention.. or the fault is vague or intermittent or customer hasn’t a clue how to use it and thinks its faulty .
Point one, if they prepared properly then no issue. Fact is many do not.
Point two, indeed.
Many a repair company’s solution to these issues, just throw parts at it or try to ramp up the cost to get it written off.
I’ve binned a number of repairers for ISE due to that. Some of them border on criminally negligent, outright dangerous, terminally stupid, fraudulent and a host of other idiotic shenanigans that they think is perfectly acceptable.
funkyboogy wrote:manufacturers and w/ps tend to forget what engineers have to put up with whilst doing there daily job.
And engineers forge that everyone has to put up with when they fail to do their job properly as well.
That sword cuts both ways. 😉
funkyboogy wrote:invest in decent tech teams who are able to offer relevant info when its required would be a lot cheaper than training ..
What, to what is often a complete donkey that refuses to think for themselves? Why bother?
funkyboogy wrote:when i say decent tech teams i mean dont put ex engineer on a help desk who hasnt seen an appliance for 5 years and reads from a service manual.
Is that another way of saying that you don’t get your hand held and your bum wiped as well? You don’t get the trail of breadcrumbs that leads you to the completion of the repair. Or would you just like for someone more skilled to repair it for you and pay you for that?
Guess what, that won’t happen.
What will happen is that you will get a reputation as a donkey and work will start to evaporate as replacements are found.
Now I can tell you every single trick in the book, much of it I wrote I do believe. So I can tell from a returned job sheet if the engineer is telling the truth or not and I can tell you when he/she is bullshitting. I can tell you quite honestly that there’s more manure than gold. A lot more.
The number of guys that can’t diagnose a simple fault is staggering.
Submit a job sheet to me it better be right because I’ll smell the manure a mile away, then some.
A lot I let slide, I probably shouldn’t but, I do. But that doesn’t mean to say I don’t know that you’re either lying through your teeth or you haven’t a Scooby Doo what you’re doing.
But, that’s just me.
Anyone else in this line just finds a replacement or brands you as being second tier, or third, or whatever and tries not to use you if at all possible. They don’t bother to tell you you’re a donkey, what’s the point?
If you want examples I can give you them all day long, every day of the level of stupidity out there. The laziness, The failure to do the most basic fault diagnosis. The throwing parts at problems, even when there’s no problem. The ramping up the parts needed to write off machines. It just goes on and on.
The worst culprits are multi engineer businesses because, as employees they often don’t give a toss, so long as their wages are in the bank. Some of the things so called “quality” large repairers do is scary.
That does not however mean that smaller micro and one man businesses should be at all complacent. I’m shocked at how some of them survive so long, although a number of them do have to change trading name on occasion.
Then there are those that are absolute shining lights and give hope for the industry as a whole and, there are some. Some of these guys are utterly brilliant at what they do. Sadly and, I hate to say this, they are the minority.
If you really want to learn the learn. Don’t be bumping your gums about courses and all manners of rubbish that you really don’t need, read, listen, learn. There’s a ton of information on here to do just that and there’s a bunch of old hands (no offence to anyone) that will offer guidance.
But, for pity’s sake, at least take the time and trouble to learn the basics, how the machines you are supposed to be repairing actually work, what they should do and look up any info you have available before screaming about any injustice.
If you do that, you will usually be able to work out any fault on any machine. It will only be the rare one you have an issue with.
K.
Re: City & Guilds 2359.
When I stated in this trade 28 yrs. ago, I did a 2yr foundation city guilds course In general engineering, I then when went on to shadow someone on and off For year and a half to see all the different situations, faults, experiences that was to be had in the big wide world,(big learning collage of life)
Yes the course was helpful in my development, but also was my attitude to wishing to Learn more about other makes models, so with some basics off I went to lean a massive amount more,unaided
Having met a vast amount of people over the years, I’ve notice that just because you got a degree in….. whatever?
Does not mean that you’re the best it just means you have passed an ability to pass, it’s what you do with the knowledge that you have gained that matters , we are not needing to have an over regulated ,over qualified industry in white goods, because we are not going to benefit from it.Market forces will leave the best of us. That do are Best
Re: City & Guilds 2359.
we do work for specific manufacturers where some tech is good you speak to someone who knows what their talking about this makes a huge difference when you have exhausted all diagnostics , fault turns out to be a manufacturing issue that has just came on the radar ..
we have some manufacturers who have no tech , no wiring diagrams no fault codes and questionable electronics , cheap parts cheap appliances .
all i can do is compare the 2 and say the manufacturers who invest in technical come of better .
i maybe dont get the full picture with regards to manufacturers , i see engineers who get stuck and come to me for advice , since i still go out to calls i experience the faults they come across and understand the issues they sometimes face.
if you deal with older appliances insurance etc all the tech is on the market place and the info is plenty full, tech is not normally an issue .
however if you deal with new appliances you do come across all the weird and wonderful issues that manufacturers etc dream up in their quest to be NO 1 or sell cheap and cheerful units .
so yes ability to fault find diagnose prepare for the job types you have – call what you like their is still a need for relevant technical.
and of course the tech forum on here is a prime example of relevant tech – ie coming from people who are out in the field experiencing the issues that other engineers are inquiring about
Re: City & Guilds 2359.
There is a plan in place to be fully implemented within a time frame. It will affect WP’s to the point there income source will stop and therefore work will dry up in favour of the plan.
It could be binned next week, l doubt it, but its a new approach to an issue that has been around for decades, the difference this time is money and its planned to involve all the major and minor players.
For a few years now poor results have led to huge financial losses from company engineers and WP’s.
I’m not saying specifics for what should be obvious, you’ll have to take it or leave it.
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Re: City & Guilds 2359.
Lee, while you’re there could you do me a favour and ask the leprechauns to send some of the gold pot at the end of the rainbow my way please? Or, better yet, just get me the grid reference eh?
That’s about as seriously as your last post can be taken.
Something might happen or, perhaps it won’t, but there again it will.
But we don’t know what that something might be. We don’t know who it will affect or how.
At least Hans Christian Andersen had the decency to put some sort of point and content in his tales.
Or maybe the plan’s all in your head protected from the aliens by your tinfoil hat!
The one point you have made that is accurate is that manufacturers, a number of them, have lost money through the incompetence of both some agents and employed engineers and some are actively now monitoring it.
K.
Re: City & Guilds 2359.
When started many moons ago went out for a week with an old hand who was thorough and did everything by the book, i then was popped of to the training school for about a month when i came back i went out with the same engineer for another 3 weeks, that was the best training i could have had, on the other hand i could have been sent out with another senior engineer who was a nightmare and i’ve always believed i wouldnt be half the engineer i am today if i had been dumped onto him.
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