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Anonymous wrote:Hi Kwatt,
I take your point about debatable quality and that is exactly my point.
I also think that there are a far larger percentage of wooden floored houses globally than you assume.
Do you not accept even the possibility that there is a genuine fault with the machine?
Is it not possible for someone with a concrete floor to have a faulty washing machine?
Are you seriously saying that people with faulty washing machines ergo vibrations should move if they have wooden floors?
Do you think that BMW’s are solely designed for the UK?
I think you are referring to your terms and agreement with warranty sales for white goods?
It is a two way dialogue here.
Did I explain it was going on a wooden floor? No I did not.
I think you have stated several times the fact that a Meile would work well in the same position and so trying out the LG on a concrete base what would that be proving?
It’s faulty or of inferior quality?
Interestingly, did you know of the perentage of the cars being recalled in Europe?
Would you feel happier if the appliance was more dangerous before you said replace the unit?
Take carKulumbo
Noli me vocate. Ego te vocabo.
Well said Kulumbo
Over to you Kwatt
What’s this about me sending you too much stuff to read
To assist you I’ve mostly only quoted the questions Kulumbo has asked
Oh! and spin speed is not the whole answer
Spin speed is not the whole answer
Re: LG Washing machine vibration
Klumbo wrote:I take your point about debatable quality and that is exactly my point. I don’t think it unreasonable for a person to assume that the goods they are buying in a shop in the UK should be of satisfactory quality, fit for their purpose, and meet the standards that any reasonable person would expect to use that appliance in the UK!
I agree. However the reality can be somewhat different. However it’s all wrapped up in that “fit for purpose” caveat that is so often used and abused. Fit for purpose means that the goods performs the task it was bought for, it does not state that it has to perform to a set level. You bought a clothes washer, does it wash clothes? If the answer is yes then the goods were fit for purpose.
Klumbo wrote:The law has no exception, least of all any caveats that you will have to put up with the product as it was designed for another market in another country, this simply is not good enough.
Quite correct, but interpretting the law is a whole other ball game and one that’s most often carried out in a court of law and not on here. All I can do is quote from my own experience in dealing with such things and the results that I see people getting.
Klumbo wrote:A study into where the majority of machines are made and designed for while interesting should not be a prerequisite for a person having a machine that works satisfactory in the UK. I would be one of the first to recognise that Asia has taught the West some pretty hard facts about supply and demand, and at the same time they have managed to supply excellent quality of goods. I see no reason why this should not apply to washing machines. I also think that there are a far larger percentage of wooden floored houses globally than you assume.
It is actually pretty interesting when you get into it and it also explains a lot of things. But irrelevant to a large extent for this discussion.
Appliances are, really, cheap mass-produced in runs. Without boring you to death with how it all works, manufacturers will generall set aside X amount of production time to each appliance or model and churn out hundreds or thousands that are identical, what country they go to seems to me to be secondary other than that they comply with local legislation and operate on the correct voltage.
Klumbo wrote:The only thing that having my washing machine work with less noise would prove is that concrete does not transmit the unwarranted vibrations from a faulty washing machine as much as a wooden floor does.
Which is exactly the point in this case and the point I’m making.
Klumbo wrote:Do you not accept even the possibility that there is a genuine fault with the machine? Is it not possible for someone with a concrete floor to have a faulty washing machine? Are you seriously saying that people with faulty washing machines ergo vibrations should move if they have wooden floors?
There is a possibility but the LG machines are well known for this problem, so much so that there is a modification that helps the problem, see Kevin’s comment earlier.
It is however, my experience over the past 20 years, that with 99{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of cases where excessive vibration is reported by the customer that the flooring will be unsuitable for the appliance. Now, who’s fault that is, the house bulider or the manufacturer not taking account of it in the UK and designing accordingly is open to debate. What I will say is that this hacks us off as much as it does customers as we have to deal with the complaints about it and explain all this over and over, almost daily.
Klumbo wrote:Whether a machine I buy is designed purely for the UK or not is of little concern to me when buying it. I simply trust the manufacturer that they have done their market research correctly and shall supply through reputable dealers the goods to do the job as they were designed to do. Do you think that BMW’s are solely designed for the UK? The cars sold here are simply tailored for the UK market as recognised as one of the finest quality cars you can buy. So using your logic LG and other manufacturers should be taking this into account and modifying their product for the UK market.
I would agreee, but with the car the road you run it on is virtually the same and the fuel that powers it, like the electricity that supplies your appliance is the same the world over barring a minor difference in fuel grading or supply voltage. That said, if you buy a road car and drive it off-road you would invalidate any warranty as it was not being driven on the surface it was intended to be driven on, same thing spun a different way.
Klumbo wrote:An A rating is not all that matters nor high spin speed, although they are factors to base a choice upon. There are certainly faster spin speeds than the machine I bought. In addition, while it probably interests the installers and maintenance men where the machines are built and designed this type of information is really only relevant to the correct audience, yourselves.
Not correct. In fact many people simply look at the style, label on the front, check if it’s a decent name that they know and at a price they like. Very, very few people research what they are or have bought in my experience as they generally regard kitchen appliances as not a very exciting subject or purchase, which is fair enough. However the consequence of buying with no research can be all too apparent in that the customer can buy goods that are not what they want or expect through no-one’s fault but their own, I’ve done it myself.
However there is very little information out there on appliances due to this, no glossy What Washer on the shelf in WH Smiths I’m afraid so people have to rely on what little information they can get off the internet and from sales people. Which, unless you happen to get a decent sales person, unlikely in most of the big chains, that know the products then the information you will recieve is based entirely on the paper specifications, not on real world use.
Klumbo wrote:I think you’ll find what people want and I would imagine that almost everyone would agree is simply value for money. Lets hope that the manufacturer does not decide to sacrifice all the dampers and springs for the people of the UK wanting cheap A rated machines. Your logic would still stand that if you were to put it on a concrete floor it would work perfectly – this would be in comparison to wooden floor. However, this would not prove that the machine was working correctly in the first place! This is simple common sense applied.
Agreed on the first point.
On the second, it’s sad but appliances seem now to be manufactured to meet a price and style, not a level of quality and performance. We get this with cheap stainless steel ovens as people want the fashionable finish on a budget, so much is sacraficed as stainless isn’t cheap. This leads to poor performance issues, noise issues, issues with the finish etc. and all because that’s what the customer wants at the price that they will stand, the manufacturers are merely catering to what people want to buy at the price the market will stand. I’m sorry, but that’s the commercial reality of the situation and until the manufacturer’s customers demand something better and are willing to pay a little more for it, that situation will not change. But a lot of that comes down to informing people of these things, which is what we try to do here.
Many of the machines out there no don’t even have proper dampers in them, at least the LG does and, as I said, at least they’ve done something to improve where there is a problem.
If it works on a stable surface then it does prove that the machine is working correctly saying that this is not so is akin to telling me that driving a Mondeo up Snowdonia and it not working correctly is unacceptable. I can’t track your logic there at all.
Klumbo wrote:I agree with you about buying another washing machine Meile or otherwise and it working fine in the same location, remember I had a rather elderly machine that came away from that same position. So this being the case you are recognising the fact that this would be due to one of two factors (a) The build quality of the LG is poor in comparision not designed for wooden floor installation (b) The specific LG machine is faulty. Either way it is the machine that requires replacing not moving home!
Let me ask you this though Klumbo, how much did you pay at the time for the old machine? Then calculate what that is in today’s money and you may be surprised.
Of course it’s a quality issue, there’s no argument there at all, the problem is that until you get to the good, well built machines that cost a little more they’re all pretty much the same with minor variations.
Klumbo wrote:I think your entirely wrong about customer expectations of cars, new cars more so, and particularly high end executive cars. I or other people buying BMW although not 500 times as much as a £400 washing machine (that would be £200,000) would expect the dealership to take the car back if there was a problem they could not repair and/or replace the vehicle. You should watch programs like Watchdog it’s full of people asking for their money back when goods have been misrepresented or faulty. Very often the goods on the program are costing even less than the £400 you mention.
My apologies, that was a typo, it was meant to be 50 times.
I do occasionally watch Watchdog but I find it full of journalistic sensationalism and, often, picking on poor targets. I also find some of the attitude towards companies trying to help customers who do have a problem quite offensive. That siad it has it’s place, but they still have to fill that half hour slot whether or not they can find justified cases or not.
It is my experience that most UK companies are well governed by law and are actully providing good service and value for money. Of the many thousands of UK companies or those that trade in the UK and internationally only a handful are actually bad I should think.
Klumbo wrote:Higher level of service and duty of care. I think you are referring to your terms and agreement with warranty sales for white goods? In terms of the consumer law I have already stated it is clear and unambiguous. I expect often the reason for sending an appliance back is that it makes sense all round. The customer does not want to be taking multiple days off work for the engineer to come around trying various fixes. The seller does not want an unhappy customer who may not go back and/or start legal proceedings. If the appliance is faulty or simply a case that the product is of such poor quality that this vibration can be expected from it all the time then the engineer should have the grace to recognise that fact and advise the customer honestly. It is a two way dialogue here and too assume that buyers are at fault re having too high expectations might mean that we should revisit our own.
Ah, a subject close to my heart indeed.
Let’s go back to teh scenario with the car…
Your 3 month old car breaks. You have to take it to the dealer, hire a car at your expense whilst the new car you bought is being repaired and it will be fixed sometime in the next week or so. Generally this is accepted by most customers, I have a van in that position right now.
Can you claim the manufacturer for loss of earnings, can you claim for the hire car or can you claim for the inconvienece and expense of getting the vehicle to them? Short answer is no, you cannot.
Yet for your faulty washer we have to come to you, at a time convienent to you, repair it and call back with any spares required. Yet meantime many people think that, if the appliance is less than twelve months old, that they have the automatic God given right to a replacement machine, compensation for loss of earnings as well as a host of other costs thrown in and, many manufacturers will actually pay some of that. I would therefore maintain that this industry offers a better service than many others, although it is much misaligned.
The engineers, as they do on here, will generally offer you an honest and unbiased opinion. The reason for that is simple, there’s no point in saying otherwise as the problem will not be solved, which is after all why we’re there in the first place. We can do little to alter the specification of the machine without breaking the law (technically) and invalidating the warranty so we have to manage as best we can and advise customers as best we can within the framework laid out by the manufacturer and the law. If people don’t like that or accept what we tell them then I’m afraid there’s not much we can do about it.
Klumbo wrote:The installation is the same and per manufacturers instructions. As you say if you would expected a Meile to work perfectly well in the same location the floor then by process of simple elimination must be of reasonable construction. Did I explain it was going on a wooden floor? No I did not. Nor would I explain when buying a new car that I should expect it to run on petrol sold in the UK forecourts, and not be dependant on USA fuel grade! Compared washing machine prices via the RPI interesting but this should not affect my fundamental rights as a consumer. I thought I was spending more than most do on machines at £550 there are many that cost a lot less. I did not go out to buy a cheap A rated machine. As detailed earlier, the floor is solid even more so now. An earlier machine worked well in the location so personally there is no careless (blithe) blaming going on here. I think you have stated several times the fact that a Meile would work well in the same position and so trying out the LG on a concrete base what would that be proving? It’s faulty or of inferior quality. My very point from the start.
See points earlier.
You would not expect the same performance or build quality comparing a Kia to a BMW as well would you? Same thing, different products.
Klumbo wrote:I agree that Toyota recalling 880,000 cars is excellent recognition that something is wrong with a some of their cars, and they have to be admired for dealing with the problem and not treated with disdain. They aren’t hiding their heads in the sand and blaming it on where we live, nor any other blithe excuse. They simply have dealt with a problem. The result is that all their customers shall have properly working goods, something more than can be expected of the LG machine it seems. Interestingly, did you know of the perentage of the cars being recalled in Europe? Approximately 2{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}. Would you feel happier if the appliance was more dangerous before you said replace the unit? Take care.
Here’s the crux of it.
Toyota have recognised the problem and dealt with it. LG offer a free remedy to the problem, they’ll even pop round and fit it for you. How does that make them any different from Toyota? If anything I’d say they are doing better by coming to you, not the other way around.
I would not be happier if the appliance was dangerous at all, but I can see you’re more than intelligent enough to take the point that I was making without explaining it in more simplistic terms.
K.
Re: LG Washing machine vibration
This is a problem we are having to bear, web based statements as below doesn’t help the situation though.
http://www.comet.co.uk/comet/html/cache … _drive.htm
We had a case today where a machine has been trouble free until the customer moved house. Moved from a 4 bed house on a new estate where the machine was in the garage, to a 1930’s house with a wooden suspended floor.
Just travel around mainland Europe, and all laundry products are in the utility, basement or wash room, not shoehorned into a kitchen unit. We the Brits are unique in insisting the washing is done alongside the cooking.
Alex
Re: LG Washing machine vibration
I’ve had my wm1485fhd for nearly 4 years now, it’s on a solid floor & it’s far quieter than the Tricity bendix washer i replaced it for. A good friend of mine having seen ours bought the same model, it rattled like a bag of spanners to the point where the front case screws came undone and the reason…… wooden floor, they’ve now moved & put the machine in the garage where it runs perfectly.
Ive lost count the number of battles i’ve had with customers over the years over this subject, even my friends wouldnt beleive my explanation that plastic base + plastic tub + flimsy case + 1400rpm + wooden floor = lots of vibration, they only believed me when they finally moved!
I would say that most of the customers i encountered were people who’d traded up from machines bought in the 80s which generally were 800 – 1000 spin, had a heavy enamel tub, very heavy induction motor packed inside a solid casing, they weighed a bloody ton and they never moved!
There’s no magic cure for this problem and as the machines get lighter and spin faster it’s only going to get worse, you might find a warning buried in your instruction book about wooden flooring but by the time you read it you’ve already bought the machine, as for cars – don’t go there, mine started breaking down after just 3 months, dealer didn’t have a clue, it went back & forward numerous times without success & i got sod all in compensation. In the end i got fed up & traded it at another garage then 2 weeks later they appeared on Watchdog!
Re: LG Washing machine vibration
I had the very same problem about 15 years ago in a housing estate close to me, the council applied to the EEC for grants to knock them down the dividing wall was left up between the 2 houses top qualify for the grants. The customers were decanted until the houses were rebuilt the concrete floors were replaced with wooden suspended floors on returning with the same machines we and every manufacturer had a hellish time trying to cure vibration problems in this estate the builders had to come back and fix the floors i dont have any problems with vibration now but at the time it was a nightmare.
Problem with suspended floor is that they are a variable. Consider:
I occasionally work with laboratory centrifuges. heavy rotor (maybe a half the machine’s mass), but samples are loaded very precisely, so the unit rotates with perfect balance. The a/v mounting feet are just that- to damp motor noise from travelling through the bench.
Now your w/m is a totally different ballgame. A light stainless steel drum (rotor) filled with your washing packed in god-only-knows which way. A massive imbalance. We offset that by mass-loading the outer tub with the motor, lumps of iron or concrete, whatever. But that aint enough to fully control the movement of the tub on it’s suspension so… the movement is damped by shocks. Just like a car.
Problem here is that “for every action, there’s an equal and opposite reaction”. What this really means is the tub will try to pull the machine off the floor.OK. We know this, so does the manufacturer. He has to design the suspension spring/ damper combo so that acceleration/ decelleration of the tub is controlled without transmitting too much to the chassis. The levelling feet then control this movement of the chassis.
But when you set the machine on a suspended floor, you are really setting the machine on another spring. Springs have a resonant frquency. If it just so happens that the floor and the w/m have a similar resonance, then (basically) the floor will try to pull away from under the machine. This antiphase can result in twice the peak displacement, and so could very well be enough to make the whole machine levitate off it’s a/v feet and gently glide accross the room, making a terrible racket.
So. The floor is a variable. Better than that, it’s an unknown. The manufacturer can neither design a w/m for your specific floor nor really advise you on your floor ’cause he can’t see it or measure it’s properties. He can recommend that you increase the strength and mass of the floor in that area. But it’s only advise. He could perhaps add a specification in the sales blurb with a required constant for floor strength or resonant frequency. Would it help? not really.But a mod kit for the machine to try and contol the tub and chassis relative to the unknown spring it’s sitting on is a pretty good response in the circumstances, no?
DavidRe: LG Washing machine vibration
That’s just another little technical detail Alexa.
If the load capacity is increased then so does the size of the outer tank, leaving less room for the tank to move laterally and vertically so, logically, you have to compensate by stiffening the anti-dampening measures. So, in effect, with all that DPM nicely pointed out, you actually increase the transmitted vibrations still further by not dampening as well internally within the case.
Also, as the previous guest poster pointed out, it is a plastic tank in the LG (as well as most others these days) in a supposed “green” move. Funny that it’s cheaper than metal then eh? 😉
K.
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