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Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Allsorts wrote:
P.S. Lee8 Please .. You know I don’t normally respond to your rantings, but I’m going to respond this time…. Your post above sounds like a finger pointing exercise at Simon, just because you are peeed off… If you need to complain about a ‘business practice’ or ‘lack of’ of someone… please PM them or email them instead of posting what could be embarrassing or potentially damaging to their business if posted on this forum. The fact that Simon was at the meeting is rather like ‘Sorry I am on holiday’ or like ‘trying to get me on a Sunday’ regardless of the fact that you don’t take holidays or the fact that you work on Sundays… it is a personal choice… I am not picking on you but you really do need to think before you post…Its not a rant or finger point and I’m not peed off, Simon and Amica have my full support, I spoke to Simon and I’m sure this will result in some further contact on Monday.
This is the last place I would Rant, I’m far more blunt in real life than on a forum.
My point was that when a small business has the chance to sell serious amount of appliances and improve my business someone always will spoil it.
That can be anything from how we are perceived by the public, the govt to just doing the job of sales and repairs.
Its always been this way and always will.
Which is why I’m not that bothered. 😆
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Lee8, you have a concern with a supplier, why have you brought that on to here? What have 90{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of your comments on here got to do with this topic?
My headline “Is there a Future”, i am 29 years along, i bloody hope so too, i want there to be, i want our profession to be recognised, i want to see technical colleges teaching the basics, i want to see some form of acreditation, i want to see the current knowledge being taught to new engineers, and yes i do want to be part of the “Body” that brings this to fruitition. I want to again be proud to tell people ” i fix domestic appliances” without being compared to the man around the corner who bodges and scarpers.
I was at the WTA meeting friday, there was a lot of relevent people there, i had a lot of concerns, one of which was companies or individuals are allowed to be members without any form of appraisal, was it the intention of all members being eventually OFT and ISO compatible? Lots of things were not explained.
I also made some assumptions about one of the Board, i will not go in to detail here but he has contacted me and we have had a private conversation that as put me straight and i accept that some of the things i said were a little distasteful and OTT. But as i explained, if only there was less piss and wind, some one at the WTA should have stood at the top and clearly stated what the intention of the WTA is, how their progression through the plan would eventually lead to a form of recognition and the expulsion of the members that do not or refuse to meet a recognised minimum standard, this for me is my main concern about Trade Bodies, any one can join and put the sticker on the van. And yes my company has a lot of certificates on the wall, (OFT included) all purchased or trained for at great expence and this is monies that needs to be recouped.Ken, i am not bordering on idiotic, and i have took offence at that, you cant call and tune and then simply say no offence intended sir!
I also disagree with your point about regulation, Gas regulations have led to the UK being one of the safest countries in Europe, Part P widens the choice of the consumer to get small works done at a reduced cost, it has also opened another revenue door for small businesses, my opinions and no offence intended! lol I really dont think its a mini cartel, it says if you dont want to be qualified you wont work in this industry. If it was a mini cartel, what is the WTA?
I want to be part of the future and when i retire i want to see this as a profession.Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
DrDill wrote:some one at the WTA should have stood at the top and clearly stated what the intention of the WTA is, how their progression through the plan would eventually lead to a form of recognition and the expulsion of the members that do not or refuse to meet a recognised minimum standard, this for me is my main concern about Trade Bodies, any one can join and put the sticker on the van.
I agree Nigel. That I suppose was my job, and one I failed on because of fear of public speaking, that I didn’t know I had until the day, looking around the room (And that is something I will address by the next meeting)! My input in to the WTA untill now is silent work! No one knows what I do / where I go etc to keep pushing the COP through the OFT & it’s not really advertised, I was happy with that Friday, but in hind sight, you are spot on again, I should have presented and given people like yourself a chance to understand what we want & where we’re going! I apologise to you publicly for that and anyone else that may have the same thoughts.
Moving forward… I’m in your boat Nigel, along with every other person that gives a sh1t about our trade! I want a better future as I have a bl00dy long time (God willing) in it! But it isn’t something we can achieve overnight, and definately something we can’t achieve without passionate people like yourself getting on board and helping us row!
I believe in my earlier post, but what I believe for the future and what is factual now are two very different things! We only have 2 options Nigel, either 1: Accept it, shut it and the trade is on a long downward slope to nothing, or 2: Have some belief, input and TRY to change things.
Without the passionate people in this trade, it’s doomed! But if the passionate people unite, grow and make an effort (Whether it be financial via subs or man hours at a meeting somewhere, it’s all even) we have power, power will get ears to open, goverments to open their office doors to listen, and that is a FACT!
Adrian.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
My comments go to show quite a lot, sorry don’t know how to write more simply than I have to get the point you missed across.
I guess being in business is all about meeting the challenges faced daily and overcoming them or avoiding them all together yourself.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Is there a future for this industry? Mmmm… as someone said at the meeting, it generally depends on new-blood wishing to enter the profession. Adequate training must be made available at not too much cost … Newcomers that are thinking of joining the trade will be massively influenced by the quality and cost of the training that is available at the time.
IMO and I know I mirror the opinions of many others, the NVQ’s that are available for this trade are wholey inadequate and only teach what a monkey could learn…
Again IMO, WTA and other bodies, including long standing engineers, would do well to piece together a Training tutorial that would give Engineers a standard of teaching for newcomers to surpass the current NVQ. I am lucky that when I entered into this trade to compliment my other trades, I did so having a Auto Mechanical background with some General Electrical knowledge and testing experience, because I could not find the training that I considered was necessary other than a few courses that funding-wise were way out of the reaches of my pockets.
Today, I am still not a rich man, far from it, but if I had access to something like what I have described (A training manual to use to teach others to an appropriate skill level) then I would gladly train-up someone for little or no cost and pay them whilst they are training.Maybe this would be a way forward… Maybe even this scenario could take place via the Employment Agency.
George
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Hi George,
Agree with EVERYTHING you say! But do you want to try knock on a goverment door with these plans, whilst an unknown minority?
How does ANYONE set up Nationwide training and recognition with low cost? It’s impossible. For that, you NEED goverment funding and backing.
Again, UNTILL we stand up MASSIVELY in this trade as an association, not much will get listened to 🙁
Before we can persue anything, we have to ESTABLISH ourselves, as a trade… Hense the WTA. Trust me George, I’ve been to a goverment department, and one of the first things they want to know, is how big of a proportion of the trade we represent. Frustrating I know, but fact!
Everything you and others say is 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} True, and the more comments the better! The more people that comment, the more that can be a part of making times change! But… In fear of repeating myself, everything that’s said, will take YEARS, and CANNOT even be persued unless people stand up and join in!
Adrian.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
the jobs we do will change but there will always be jobs needing done.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
When I started my apprenticeship in 1990, the good old YTS then City & Guilds the nearest to appliance repair was to do Electrical, Electronic and Mechanical Engineering, so I spent my college time trying to work out how to strip Industrial motors for CNC machines and there controls.
There was no qualification for Appliances, lucky for me as my qualification is more advanced, if I’d moved employers I would have been several thousand pounds better off a yr as an employee in that industry than the appliance field.
Most of the people I know have come through either as trained company engineers or other Electrical backgrounds.
I don’t believe the industry needs/requires anything different, the private sector does run appliance courses and they don’t last beyond a few weeks.
Spending several yrs in college is not required and I guess the private sector does not see a market in doing it nationwide on the same level as other skills, otherwise they would have many many yrs ago, after all the appliances have been around a few yrs.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
DrDill wrote:Ken, i am not bordering on idiotic, and i have took offence at that, you cant call and tune and then simply say no offence intended sir!
I also disagree with your point about regulation, Gas regulations have led to the UK being one of the safest countries in Europe, Part P widens the choice of the consumer to get small works done at a reduced cost, it has also opened another revenue door for small businesses, my opinions and no offence intended! lol I really dont think its a mini cartel, it says if you dont want to be qualified you wont work in this industry. If it was a mini cartel, what is the WTA?I didn’t say that you were, please go back and read what I wrote again. I didn’t even infer that you were either. You have obviously read into the comments what you wanted to read, which is fine.
Gas and electrical safety legislation is there because people have been and are put in harm’s way if the job is botched and there have been a number of high profile cases that led to the legislation. We don’t have that other than the odd washing machine going bang and scaring a dog or the odd fridge that pops. None have ever caused any serious injury or death that I am aware of. Therefore, legislation hinged around safety like the examples that you cite is just not on the radar for government and, there’s even less chance of them spending money on something like that for the foreseeable future as there isn’t any to spend.
You might not like it, you might not agree with it, but it is the reality.
So, your notion of safety legislation and/or some form of official regulation other than a voluntary one through existing bodies will, for at least the next few years, simply not fly.
TBH, I don’t think it ever will.
DASA have lobbied for over two decades to have it done and, thus far, failed. They have failed because of several reasons that I have pointed out on numerous occasions but, in short, trying to achieve this sort of regulation is putting the cart before the horse, you need to fix a lot of things before you even start down that path.
In my opinion, there’s little point in chasing rainbows and therefore, unless the climate changes, I would not waste my time pursuing this.
K.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
No, sorry Ken, i have reread it and my conclusion is the same, no offence intended.
I sometimes wonder what you want for the trade Ken, you say that DASA have chased the rainbow for 20 years and failed so far, so what is the point of another Trade Body? Why are you bothering with the WTA, you seem to have given up?
I know you talk of issues your father had in business and seem to carry these issues with you, i agree most of the stuff you speak about makes sense but you are not right about everything, on here it seems that you are treated as some sort of oracle, the one to lead, the one to listen too. I expect that now i have questioned you i will be slated by all for questioning you, why is this?
I believe there is a need for our trade to be a profession and recognised, you on the other hand do not, you have a big following and much of what you say will be agreed with, is this healthy, should we all join the WTA and have a vote on weather to loby for recognition? And if the vote was yes, what would you do then.
Sometimes i think you yourself may have to much of an influence? If i am in the minority i will leave, with my tail between my legs.
No offence intended.
NigelRe: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Believe what you will Nigel, you obviously do and have chosen to jump on the comment as well as to use it out of context but, that’s your call, not mine.
DASA does its thing, the WTA does its thing. Sometimes the goals are the same, sometimes they are not.
You can attack me personally all day long. I’ve got a thick hide and used to it.
Always being right, when did I or anyone ever say that? I’d dearly like you to point that out, anywhere.
As for questioning me, feel free, I don’t have any issue with it. If you read back through the history of UKW you will see that it happens quite frequently and that most of the things that you have been talking about have been discussed before.
If you feel so strongly about becoming a recognised trade then that’s fine, what do you propose to do in order to accomplish that given the points I have already made?
It’s all very well shouting the odds that you want this and want that but, without any strategy, substance or direction you are highly liable to be in the same position in another twenty years time. And, unless you have any inspirational ideas on how to achieve your stated aims I can’t see how you hope to progress them. Thus far I haven’t seen anything constructive to further the notion/s mooted.
As for influence and the other inferences made in your post, I just have an opinion. If people choose to listen fine, if they don’t, fine. I’ve no truck with it either way nor could I especially care. I hope what I say does make sense and helps people but that’s about the size of it, but I’m no oracle and everyone here has a simple choice if they don’t like what’s on this channel… find another one or go switch the PC off.
K.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Ken, i do not want to be in a battle against you, i want to be along side you. Like it or not you carry great credability and others will follow your lead without question, you have earned your integrity and loyalty, i have respect for you too, but lets not ping pong school yard talk and move back to the topic of this thread. Answer me the following points:-
1) having read Aidrians post about the plan for WTA and you post saying your against regulation as it creates a mini cartel such as Gas Safe and Part P, if the WTA achieves its aims would that not be then another mini cartel?, the very thing you said your opposed too, are you for this or against it?
2) I do feel strongly about making this trade recognised, and as i said to Aidrian on saturday i will support the WTA in its aims and would have no problems in helping in any way i can, i want to get the trade recognised and in return hopefully then the Profession can charge fair and honestly for its services. It was because at the meeting on friday these aims were not clearly laid out, now i have been told what the aims are, i understand where the WTA want to go. What is your opinion, if the WTA become recognised in a few years time are you going to decline membership because you are against regulation and mini cartels?This is not a soap opera on the TV, its real life and i cant just switch off, you do have an opinion and like i said earlier your opinion carries more weight that most, you are involved with the WTA, the WTA needs members, its important to all of us that before we join another group and pay our money that we understand fully the plan and the true feelings of those that will sit on the top table, this i believe is the way to gain more support, because as Aidrian said the WTA is going to need most of us in this trade to be members, to get the powers that be to listen.
Believe it or not, and this goes out to everyone, i am not the sort of person to shout from the stands, i will always want to be a player, but first i have to be convinced about it, and i guess most of you out there feel the same.
NigelRe: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Nigel
why not personaly investigate the different options and possibilities of sourceing affordable & deliverable online training, backed up by a recognised assessment and we’ll run it up the flag pole and see how many takers we have.
Please don’t think this is a pop at anyone, I am deadly serious.
Sean
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
I am puzzled as to why there are such strong feelings around here that have come to the conclusion that this profession has to be ‘recognised’ in order to continue plying its trade and have any future? It has also been agreed that ‘official recognition’ requires the need for government legislation, NVQ standard type training and all manner of rules and regulation in order that goal can be achieved?
This trade (sorry) profession has only survived so far simply because it is not recognised. We revel and prosper simply because of our independence and freedom from such constraints. I don’t want someone telling me I can’t change the pump on a Hotpoint unless I have got NVQ3 –44 or ISO1674. Flash my ID card and Trade Association nametag. That I must use a 33AA6D screwdriver and a Megger 1600Mk11 test meter, fill out in triplicate all the necessary forms and all the other nonsense that goes with it…!!
We are free to do what we choose, when we choose. At a price we choose, charged to who we choose. The total independence of all that allows us greater freedom from the unnecessary bondage legislation and regulation would otherwise inflict. The truth of the matter is that because of a lot of the existing legislation and regulation our profession is stifled far too much already.
Many bemoan the draconian power of regulation the W/P’s and manufacturers in the rates that they currently pay and the time they take to pay it. If each of their agents needed government trade accreditation in order to operate the whole process would collapse overnight anyway.
There’s a lot wrong with this profession that’s true but most of what is very wrong about it is brought about by commercial greed and consumer ignorance. We can only capitalise from that somewhere in the middle, keep our heads below the parapet and get on with it. The only help we need comes from within our own ranks by giving and sharing information much as we always have done here on UKW.
Cooperation through communication is the future you are seeking. By helping ourselves help ourselves the only effective solution to our success and ultimate survival.
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