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Re: Tonight on ITV
It would cost money. No doubt about it, absolutely none at all.
Someone has to do something or provide something, it will carry a cost.
I’m not prepared to vote for extra cost being forced on my own or other’s businesses. It’d be like those turkeys voting for a second Christmas again.
And, just like gas, you cannot control those that flaunt the legislation or regulations anyways or home owners from doing harm on their own.
More holes than Swiss cheese, just like Gas Safe.
But, as I said, since you’re so passionate about it then why not step up and see if you can get anywhere with it.
I did, I started a forum where people in the industry could communicate to try and make said industry better. What have you done?
K.
Re: Tonight on ITV
kwatt wrote:
lee8 wrote:
Which is why we should have a recognised qualification and regulated.If you can get anyone to care…
That will be £2000 for the course and qualification, it’ll take a week so add that cost.
Then it will be £1000 per year to maintain, five year renewal cycle. Costs more because there’s less of us than there are plumbers, gas fitters, electricians etc.
The high cost will increase warranty rates sure, but it will make repairs to all but the very high end product uneconomical therefore producing still more waste. Of course due to the low volumes there will be higher costs to repair and less people doing it. So less will get done.
Give it a few years and there would be no repairers at all.
Still keen?
If you are and you’re so convinced you’re correct, knock yourself out trying to find the government department that would deal with such requests then try to convince them that you are right and that they should splash out countless thousands on the barmy notion.
Meanwhile, I will not support and probably never will support such an idea as I think it’s suicidal and there isn’t a shred of evidence that convinces me otherwise. People ranting about it is NOT evidence by the way.
K.
I am too surprised at your comments, I agree that it is costly to get up to certain standards especially in an area where people don’t fully appreciate the value of Domestic appliance engineers. But I have few questions to ask…
Are we alone in this country have this problem or is it Europe-wide? Seeing that we are part of the EU regardless of people’s views, we get quite a lot of our trade/products from Europe despite some appliances were made in China but still it is done via EU. Are France, Germany, Spain, Italy have problems with recognising domestic appliance engineers? Also what are their recall system and their standards? I think the UK seems to have the most strict rules on electrical safety and putting public interests first. What EU have in place are often seen as inferior compared with the UK regulations, we are often one step ahead of EU regulations and they look up on us to set benchmark for EU wide standards.
I find it frightening/worrying when you say that “give it few years and we will all be gone”, it’s very defeatist attitude.
Re: Tonight on ITV
twicknix wrote:I find it frightening/worrying when you say that “give it few years and we will all be gone”, it’s very defeatist attitude.
Okay, I get that and if I didn’t have facts to back it up I wouldn’t have said it. 😉
In 2005 we undertook training of for P&G and, from 2004/5 we had data that told us all that there were approx. 3.5K UK based appliance repair companies.
By the time we contacted every single one of them and found that, of the 3.5K there were only about 2.3K still trading. A 30{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} drop in little under two years.
The average age of an appliance engineer then was 52.
Fast forward a few years and what we see is more people dropping out or retiring, some not retiring because they can’t afford to but dropping the amount of work that they do.
Less capacity but, everyone struggles on.
Also though demand appears to have fallen as well, probably due to the increase of cheap products and people’s “throw it away” mentality.
The same or similar has happened in the plumbing side with Gas Safe being a particular thorny issue, same circumstances, an ageing and declining workforce with less and less people doing any gas work. The rates have stayed relatively static though even in the face of increased costs in some areas, in others it is now higher than it once was, London being a good example.
But the problem that they have and are not too happy to share is that GS has come home to roost or, the unintended consequences have, in that a lot of the old guys are saying, “You know what, I’ve been doing this for decades what do I need to be tested in a classroom? Why should I pay for it as I can make as much money fitting bathrooms as doing this crud.”
So now, when you talk to GS or HSE off record they will tell you that the numbers have declined.
Rates will then rise because of increased costs and decreased competition.
Then punters will take matters into their own hands.
Then homes blow up. Carbon monoxide problems manifest.
These service industries are not happy places to be, it’s not nice attractive jobs, the salaries aren’t that good, the hours can be off putting, you have to deal with the public, you have to be over a certain age to get insured and so on then, you can’t get a job with no experience. It’s not the most accessible career to enter so there’s not a huge influx and, if the demand was there and the money was there then new entrants would be attracted in.
If you don’t believe me that’s absolutely fine but I do have data to support the argument and, there’s an even easier way. Just try getting a gas appliance repaired outside a major city and surrounding postcodes or, try to get an LPG product looked at where there are no caravans.
Try even getting gas work on a fridge done in many areas and you will struggle.
I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but it is already the case that the heydays of the 1980’s are a long distant memory and for the foreseeable future will not return without radical change to the entire industry, not just us.
As soon as the Berlin Wall fell and production moved ever more East dropping prices in real terms year on year the demand to repair dropped off with it.
So my take is to fight the right battles, not pointless ones that will accomplish little if anything positive in the short to medium term. I’d far rather have a pop at the cheap imports and try to get the level of repair work up then worry about the problem of the odd cowboy later because, for now, it’s nothing like the problem it was in the 70’s and 80’s and with the more technical nature of products now, far less likely to ever be again.
I’m not saying that there aren’t muppets out there, of course there are and there always will be regardless of how much legislation you throw at the problem, you won’t get them all. If you stop any at all as most of them don’t give a stuff about the law and TS is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard in dealing with them as they have no money to pursue them.
Try testing the appliance engineers, they can earn nearly as much stacking shelves in Tesco in some cases. Show me the incentive to invest in training and certification that is policed as well as running their own business whilst about it.
Given that the vast bulk dropped out of doing gas products when CORGI came in and a whole bunch more dropped gas work on FGAS when it came in, I have more than a strong suspicion that exactly the same would happen if more legislation was brought in anywhere else.
K.
Re: Tonight on ITV
kwatt wrote:By the time we contacted every single one of them and found that, of the 3.5K there were only about 2.3K still trading. A 30{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} drop in little under two years.
Yes that little excercise was an eye-opener for sure. Just 2.3k indies covering a possible 25 million households across the realm. That should have yielded plenty of good work for all yet the continual decline, I suspect, continues to this day. In spite of the new ‘influx’ from other industrial forced redundancies. And the sheer lack of training courses around the country (or not as it happens) gives an inkling as to the present day situation.
kwatt wrote:The average age of an appliance engineer then was 52.
I’m sure that wouldn’t be too far from the truth but I wonder how you could ever come up with that statistic? I don’t think you have to state your age when joining the trade forums here on UKW or anywhere else for that matter.
I wonder what the average age of guys going on Graham Dixon’s course is? Probably 52. 😉
Re: Tonight on ITV
kwatt wrote:
twicknix wrote:
I find it frightening/worrying when you say that “give it few years and we will all be gone”, it’s very defeatist attitude.Okay, I get that and if I didn’t have facts to back it up I wouldn’t have said it. 😉
In 2005 we undertook training of for P&G and, from 2004/5 we had data that told us all that there were approx. 3.5K UK based appliance repair companies.
By the time we contacted every single one of them and found that, of the 3.5K there were only about 2.3K still trading. A 30{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} drop in little under two years.
The average age of an appliance engineer then was 52.
Fast forward a few years and what we see is more people dropping out or retiring, some not retiring because they can’t afford to but dropping the amount of work that they do.
Less capacity but, everyone struggles on.
Also though demand appears to have fallen as well, probably due to the increase of cheap products and people’s “throw it away” mentality.
The same or similar has happened in the plumbing side with Gas Safe being a particular thorny issue, same circumstances, an ageing and declining workforce with less and less people doing any gas work. The rates have stayed relatively static though even in the face of increased costs in some areas, in others it is now higher than it once was, London being a good example.
But the problem that they have and are not too happy to share is that GS has come home to roost or, the unintended consequences have, in that a lot of the old guys are saying, “You know what, I’ve been doing this for decades what do I need to be tested in a classroom? Why should I pay for it as I can make as much money fitting bathrooms as doing this crud.”
So now, when you talk to GS or HSE off record they will tell you that the numbers have declined.
Rates will then rise because of increased costs and decreased competition.
Then punters will take matters into their own hands.
Then homes blow up. Carbon monoxide problems manifest.
These service industries are not happy places to be, it’s not nice attractive jobs, the salaries aren’t that good, the hours can be off putting, you have to deal with the public, you have to be over a certain age to get insured and so on then, you can’t get a job with no experience. It’s not the most accessible career to enter so there’s not a huge influx and, if the demand was there and the money was there then new entrants would be attracted in.
If you don’t believe me that’s absolutely fine but I do have data to support the argument and, there’s an even easier way. Just try getting a gas appliance repaired outside a major city and surrounding postcodes or, try to get an LPG product looked at where there are no caravans.
Try even getting gas work on a fridge done in many areas and you will struggle.
I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but it is already the case that the heydays of the 1980’s are a long distant memory and for the foreseeable future will not return without radical change to the entire industry, not just us.
As soon as the Berlin Wall fell and production moved ever more East dropping prices in real terms year on year the demand to repair dropped off with it.
So my take is to fight the right battles, not pointless ones that will accomplish little if anything positive in the short to medium term. I’d far rather have a pop at the cheap imports and try to get the level of repair work up then worry about the problem of the odd cowboy later because, for now, it’s nothing like the problem it was in the 70’s and 80’s and with the more technical nature of products now, far less likely to ever be again.
I’m not saying that there aren’t muppets out there, of course there are and there always will be regardless of how much legislation you throw at the problem, you won’t get them all. If you stop any at all as most of them don’t give a stuff about the law and TS is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard in dealing with them as they have no money to pursue them.
Try testing the appliance engineers, they can earn nearly as much stacking shelves in Tesco in some cases. Show me the incentive to invest in training and certification that is policed as well as running their own business whilst about it.
Given that the vast bulk dropped out of doing gas products when CORGI came in and a whole bunch more dropped gas work on FGAS when it came in, I have more than a strong suspicion that exactly the same would happen if more legislation was brought in anywhere else.
K.
Your looking at yesterdays issues with the last decades solutions.
As you stated something radical needs to be done.
You dont need to turn it into a money making scheme, no need for a register, training skill centres.
The UK is over run with middlemen chasing suckers.
Start think further than a decade ago.;-)
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Re: Tonight on ITV
[quote=”Martin”
I wonder what the average age of guys going on Graham Dixon’s course is? Probably 52. 😉
The course I attended, the average age were around 24 years old. Well there were only three of us in the end as one of them jumped ship after two days which we started off as 4 men. There was an 18 years old, 20 years old with a yellow van with a screwdriver on the top and me as 34 years old. 😀
Re: Tonight on ITV
lee8 wrote:Your looking at yesterdays issues with the last decades solutions.
As you stated something radical needs to be done.
And you say that why?
And your brilliant solution is?
Hot air?
lee8 wrote:You dont need to turn it into a money making scheme, no need for a register, training skill centres.
The UK is over run with middlemen chasing suckers.
Start think further than a decade ago.;-)
You must surely realise that infrastructure costs money. That cost must be passed on to those that benefit from it. End of chat.
Even doing an online thing would have a cost and, it’d be open to abuse quite easily unless you get it done properly, which increases the cost.
To say otherwise or to think that it’d go down any other way is, frankly, preposterous.
Unless you have some genius idea to run such an operation on fresh air or get people to do it for free. Good luck with that.
Bottom line, I will do diddly squat about it because I think it’s stupid idea and I’ve still seen not a shred of evidence to support it to be even marginally sensible.
And it’s a bit rich telling me to think ahead when you seem to want a CORGI type system put in place, a system from a bygone age instigated two decades or so ago. Which is largely disliked and criticised by all involved and that hasn’t really solved the problems that it was supposed to.
Lots of cost, not a lot of result.
But once again lee, you knock yourself out making it happen. A few brave souls have tried, as you can tell, none managed to succeed.
K.
Re: Tonight on ITV
Is it me?
This started due to manufacturing issues and the apparent failings of any consumer notification scheme.
How did it evolve into engineer training, and what is the relevance with regards Product Safety?
Alex
Re: Tonight on ITV
Alex wrote:Is it me?
I asked the same question earlier Alex but failed to get an answer. But it’s all down to Lee8 regularly gatecrashing threads with random comments that bear no relation to the subject matter.
Re: Tonight on ITV
Agreed but such is the nature of the forums, they regularly drift off point. Most of the time it’s no big issue but this one has strayed way off course.
I did take exception to the comment:
Which is why we should have a recognised qualification and regulated.
Quite what that has to do with a manufacturer recall escapes me completely. A TV show about recalls escapes me still more.
But it’s an illl conceived notion IMO and deserved a little attention saying as it seems that every chance that is given or, is not, lee seems to put forward this notion. Yet fails to come up with any evidence to support why it should be so, demonstrate any semblance of a system and doesn’t seem too keen to do much about it himself.
Then decides to have a dig at me in the process. To which I feel compelled to defend my position with fact as opposed to rhetoric.
For info, the average engineer age was gleaned from P&G, not from UKW numbers although given what I have seen I have absolutely no reason to doubt the result in fact if anything I’d have thought it a bit low.
K.
Re: Tonight on ITV
Anybody remember the days when schools had a car in the classroom and practical lessons.
Or technical colleges for peeps unlikely to gain a paper qualification.
As for its merits on this discussion. It seems obvious to me at least that safety issues, recalls are connected to qualifications.
After all you would expect a safety modification to be carried out by a person suitable qualified to at least remove the covers. Who deems that person qualified, there employer, the one who does not want to pay someone deemed qualified yet moans about recalls. What is the goin rate on contract work or wages, one minute too low to survive as a business then to increase it is unworkable, all valid arguements apparantly.
So we want manufacturers to be more safety aware, better products. There answer l’ve heard is get your own house in order before pointing the finger.
Catch 22 springs to mind. I have no interest in changing anything, i just find it ironic people throwing accusations around.
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