UKWG charter – spares warrany

[andy2]

I would like to sign up for repairs@ but there is one requirement in the charter that I have serious reservations about. This stipulates that a twelve month parts warranty must be given.

Part 5 – Spare parts
1. All spares will be guaranteed for 12 months from date of purchase

As most companies will only give a six month (if you are lucky!) warranty on spares this leaves a six month shortfall where the cost of any part failure must be born by the repairer.

In the case of costly labour intensive jobs ie. bearings I would give a 12 month warranty but where the major cost is in the part ie. motor or timer then my invoice presently stipulates that any parts warranty is according to the terms of the supplier / manufacturer which I think is fair to both parties.

With regard to labour warranty I specify a minimum of 90 days but this is purely at my discretion, generally I endevour to keep my customers happy, so it is usually much longer than this.

Ken (kwatt) informes me that he thinks that a twelve months parts warranty is a legal requirement.

Does this apply to those who supply us with parts?

Be interested to hear everyone’s comments on this.

Regards – Andy

PS. I think this web site is excellent and I really appreciate the extra insight and knowledge that I have from you guys (and gals?) since I joined. Thanks :wave: Andy

[kwatt]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

Hi Andy,

I recall several years ago having this very argument with both Zanussi and Candy. As an agent it was stipulated that we had to issue a 12 month warranty on all repairs to comply with UK consumer legislation as, at the time like you and others no doubt, we only offered a 6 month warranty. Candy also insisted that we joined DASA as well just for good measure who’s charter also stipulates the same and others have taken exception to that also.

The upside is that all the spares suppliers are also bound by the same legislation and have to offer the same terms to my knowledge. Getting credit on a duff part however is quite another story as I’m sure we’re all too painfully aware, as they don’t exactly make it easy, even if it’s delivered damaged or obviously used as one I had recently.

That said, there’s no stipulation within the charter that says you have to offer that sort of warranty to anyone other than a customer using Repairs@ or reffered from the site. I have a tendency towards wording things as well as I can, although obviously it is more advantagous to have a single policy, on that I would not argue.

Another point that I would make is that the instances of a failure is low, with the exception of some electronic components that are just rubbish, but we all know of them. And there are some instances where a warrantied repair is just not possible, like re-foaming. But my feeling on those is that so long as you advise and make the customer fully aware of why they do understand what you tell them and the reasons why, should they proceed, that you are unable to warranty the repair.

Also bear in mind that whilst I have been (as well as many others) doing this for years the value that can be gained from Repairs@ in particular is far higher than someone that picks you out Yellow Pages at random, or is doing the old phoning round for prices thing. Hence we charge to cover this although, in all honesty, I cannot remember a single instance of a repair we’ve had to do for free in many years.

But it’s an interesting topic and I do take the point.

K.

[admin]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

Hi,

I have run my own business for going on 15 years now and have always given 12 months guarantee on parts and labour. It really is a non issue, as over time your business wins, as the odd hiccups are more than compensated for by all the successful repairs that don’t cause any problems at all.

Take a long term view, apply commonsense and it fits nicely together with good customer guarantees.

Oh and join repairs@ today….ta

Kevin

[andy2]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

I have no problem providing a twelve month warranty on work that I have control over, and the parts are relatively cheap eg. bearings. If a problem occurs then fair do’s, its my fault and I should have done a better job in the first place.

BUT consider this nighmare scenario:-

Fit a new motor cost £160 (inc VAT – not reclaimable as not registered)

Add £XX labour cost – bearing in mind that this is already an expensive repair and the customer has limits.

9 months later, said motor blows its guts and takes out the timer / module with it!! The customer insists that she is legally entitled to a 12 month warranty and that their was nothing wrong with the module before the motor WHICH I HAD FITTED destroyed it. And she is right.

I have to fork out £160 for a new motor + £XXX for a new module and do the job again at no extra cost.

Being a bit peeved about this I contact my supplier and insist that he honour the 12 month warranty to which I am legally entitled, in an effort to recoup at least some of my losses. He replies that they only give a 6 month warranty as they have to sustain the loss themselves due to

a) The manufactures does not warranty the parts
b) They have an agreement with the manufacturer that they will bear the cost of failures in return for a reduction in the price. If they provide a 12 month warranty then the cost of the part would have to be increased substantially. This would make them less competative in the marketplace and so they would lose sales………! (Get the hankies out!)

But you can see their point. The real issue here is where does the buck stop? Manufacturer – wholesaler – retailer / repairer – customer. In truth the manufacturer is the real culprit he produces substandard goods and Joe Bloggs who can least afford it ends up footing the bill. The manufacturer who has the least equity in the goods gets off scott free!

It does not seem right somehow does it?

The trouble is that the multi-national companies that now control the vast majority of industry have such power and financial clout that they even have the ability to influence the financial (and other) policies of governments worldwide. So how would we stand if we attempted to enforce our legal rights against these manufactures with billions of £/$ at their disposal. Forget it.

Ok. In real life this sort of scenario probably would’nt happen very often but it will happen – and if you deal on these sort of terms then make sure you provide enough contingency in what you charge to lessen the sting when it does. The problem with this is that it is your customer who will ultimately pay the cost, and indirectly you the repairer will because of your higher prices ie. less people will choose the repair option.

One possible way around this dilema is to allow the customer to decide what level of warranty they want, this would then be reflected in the price they pay. This way the risk is shared by two parties and therefore is lessened for both. It would be easy to work out a table of charges dependant on the cost of the part and the warranty period required. If the customer signed a piece of paper to this effect would that negate her legal right to the 12 month warranty?

Andy

[kwatt]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

Point taken Andy and I appreciate what you’re saying as I argued the same.

However doing a bit of wholesaling, sales and service I can also see the other side of it as well. There are a lot of people out there that will extract the Mick given half a chance and it’s not that the manufacturer will not honour a warranty at all (the buck stops there BTW) it’s trying to get them to accept that it is a failure. Not one manufacturer that I have dealt with will do this properly bar MFI who I recently had a call to deal with such a problem, one email to Gary Reid and it was sorted out inside a few hours, but that’s not the norm at all.

It is my position that if a spare fails under the twelve month warranty that I will not accept the cost of a call to replace the part again, invariably it incurs a further two visits so already we’re in a loss situation and I don’t see why I should pick up the tab for a poor product on contract rates. But that’s another story.

In the instance you have there I’d be asking why the new motor was at fault, whas there some other cause? Could the module have failed allowing the machine to spin full of water? Could the timer have dead shorted causing a surge that blew the module motor? Was there simply a leak that caused it? Any other cause and the warranty is meaningless as no warranty covers other external factors or wear and tear.

Maybe because I think and deal with problems like that I don’t do warranty recalls like that, in fact that MFI one is the only one I can remember bar finding out about the Smeg timers being blown by a duff solenoid on the soap dispenser, again not exactly a cheap repair, but fair play to Smeg they picked up the tab for that little debacle. But now that we know about these things we either just replace the SD as a matter of course or, in the case of a charge call, we explain to the customer what the score is and ask if they want to pay for the SD in addition and if they don’t then it’s been their call if it goes again.

Now think if I’d been buying those from the likes of Connect at the inflated prices that were published on here not so long ago I’d be well hacked off and out of pocket. I’d also bet that there was little, if any, chance of returning the defective part because, just as I would to a customer, they’d argue that something else caused the failure.

This topic opens up a whole can of worms that many a manufacturer and/or wholesaler doesn’t want opened I’m quite sure which is why I said you’d be best to post it and open it up for discussion. However, it does not detract from the fact that if we want to promote Repairs@ to the public WE have to stay within current legislation, whether we like it or not.

K.

[Martin]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

andy2 wrote:Ok. In real life this sort of scenario probably would’nt happen very often but it will happen

I also take your point Andy but I think your “case senario” is far too extreme to ever be reality. Spares failure rate has got to be extremely low and indeed your overall profit on material sales alone should cover the loss you may suffer in the long run.

Figure out your profit margins taking all factors into account and a 12 month warranty is no problem for any reputable company to adopt. And as you have discovered, is the ‘Trade Standard Terms’ these days anyway. 😀

Martin

[admin]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

hi,

I spend £15,000 a month on spares for contract and private work. This is not an issue for us.

Whilst a lot of what you say is correct andy2 with the politics and ethics of what wholesalers and manufacturers are doing, its still no big deal. I don’t have a problem sending faulty parts back or getting credits, with anyone. As for private work the profit margins you work on should have this factor built in as Martin suggests.

Kevin

[RS]

Perhaps someone should contact trading standards and find out the legal standing on this issue rather than just what we have been led to beleive.

I was under the impression that all electrical parts were covered by a twelve months warranty by law but I could be wrong and would not argue the case

[andy2]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

There are a lot of people out there that will extract the Mick given half a chance

Yes Ken and this probably contributes a lot to the problem. Because suppliers get abused by some individuals (eg. sending for spares to attempt to isolate the fault because they do not have the expertise to do it properly, then wanting to return it because it is not the problem etc). I can understand suppliers getting a bit cheesed off with this, but rather than punish everybody why cannot they establish some sort of system to isolate the abusers. Not hard to do nowadays with computerised systems.

It is my position that if a spare fails under the twelve month warranty that I will not accept the cost of a call to replace the part again, invariably it incurs a further two visits so already we’re in a loss situation and I don’t see why I should pick up the tab for a poor product on contract rates. But that’s another story.

Are you saying here that you will charge labour for any recalls even though you must replace the part?

In the instance you have there I’d be asking why the new motor was at fault, whas there some other cause?

Yep! sometimes parts are taken out by other parts and proving that this is not the case is difficult. IMO it all boils down to mutual trust between you and your suppliers. If you only return parts infrequently and there is otherwise a good relationship (eg you pay your bills on time etc) Then the supplier should give you the benefit of the doubt, regard you as honest and replace the part.

This topic opens up a whole can of worms that many a manufacturer and/or wholesaler doesn’t want opened……………..However, it does not detract from the fact that if we want to promote Repairs@ to the public WE have to stay within current legislation, whether we like it or not.

Yes these are matters that need to be discussed because both sides have valid arguments which we need to understand and appreciate.

You may have concluded from my earlier post that I have problems in this area, but this is not the case. I very seldom have cause to return a part and when I do I do not usually have any problems. Even Connect seem to have improved very much with their customer services dept and I now find them very pleasant and helpful. At one time this firm used to infuriate me because they were so unco-operative if a problem arose, which was often because of thier mistake.

I do also understand the point that UKW have to remain with legal requirements and I do not intend for this to prevent me from joining repairs@ if you will have me.

As mentioned earlier the manufacturer should be the one who takes the responsability for failed spares as he has the least to lose financially. If he has a large number of returns then this should make him examine his quality control and/or manufacturing process. Most other businesses have to operate under these conditions so why should white goods spares manufacturers be any different? If this was the case then wholesale suppliers would be much more co-operative with us knowing that they in turn could return the part.

Its common sense and common decency really.

Andy

[kwatt]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

Richard,

To my knowledge, there’s no actual reference to the period of warranty other than what is deemed to be a “reasonable” period. It is generally accepted and widely touted in legal circles that the period of warranty should be no less than 12 months from date of purchase, note not date of first use as there is a difference. Since this has passed into legal cases and well documented it has also entered the popular psyche as being the norm with any less seen as bad and more percieved as good, irrespective of the terms which people generally don’t bother to read anyway.

However, if you try to argue it with the likes of Trading Standards you’re pretty much on a hiding to nothing due to the fact the the old 12 month thing is “the norm” and most courts in the land would side with that analysis.

Although, ever since that rubbish about a two year warranty, people have started to wake up to the fact that UK consumer protection law actually affords far greater protection, up to six years in fact from date of purchase. So again the 12 month thing’s out the window as, in theory, a customer could come back at you after 5 to 6 years and claim that the goods were not “fit for purpose”!

A lot of the above however goes back to the manufacturer/importer/brander (is that a word, if not I just invented it :)) as they take on more responsibility under the Consumer Protection Act 1987.

Whilst there is no actual statement of law (that I’m aware of) which stipulates a period of warranty it is accepted in law that the 12 months is it, hence you get hit with “it’s a legal requirement” when in fact it isn’t.

This is what I’ve learned on UK consumer legislation but I aint no barrister by any stretch.

Andy is perfectly correct, it’s all about common sense and decency in the end by both the retailer or repairer in this case, and the customer. In my experience of TS etc. they too deal on a similar principal and it’s not a case of the customer is always right, as all too often they’re not.

I can see though that this thread, as I thought it would, more highlights the issues we have in returning any defective spares or appliances, not any unwillingness on our part to honour any warranty.

K.

[Dave_Conway]

RS wrote:Perhaps someone should contact trading standards and find out the legal standing on this issue rather than just what we have been led to beleive

Rather than turn this in to a “yertsen” leave it with me, I’ll find out 😀

As far as I am aware though, 12 months is the minimum legal requirement on white goods and 3 months on browns.

To reiterate what Kev says though is the true key (on chargeable work anyway), factor any failings in to the labour rate charged. As an industry of Independants and to raise the standards expected we have to offer a 12 month warranty on works carried out to gain customer confidence and thus raise our profile.

Allow me to illustrate if I may:

Servis/Indesit/Beko/any other cheap cr@p washing machine customer, paid circa £200 – phones with a fault, we charge £50 for the repair plus parts……..phone goes down.

Bosch/Miele/Zanny/Whirlpool etc…customer, same conversation, but we manage to include the words “all our work is guaranteed for 12 months assuming the same part fitted should fail…” Happy as Larry (whoever he is 😉 )

And yes, I shat myself making that move to not under-value my services, but it does work 😀

I’ve just “yertsened” 🙄 😆

Dave.

[kwatt]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

I’ve read through the acts Dave, there’s very little specific on it at all. Typical piece of legislation, loads of them there “grey areas” so that the legal profession can make a small fortune out of defining it in case law. 🙄

Me.. cynical… na 😉

But don’t shut the thread as I think this is a very interesting, relevant and enlightening thread and, when all’s said and done, we should all be aware of this stuff. So far it’s been very good and full of excellent comment so leave it be I say.

K.

[Dave_Conway]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

kwatt wrote:So far it’s been very good and full of excellent comment so leave it be I say.

Yep, I agree, sorry I wasn’t trying to kill the thread, just get a definitive answer on the legislation.

Don’t you just love those grey areas 🙁

Most interesting, please continue……:D

Dave.

[Martin]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

Trading Standards in Hampshire adopt the “Supply or Goods & Services Act 1982 (as amended by the Sale & supply of Goods Act 1994 and Sale of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002) covers contracts for services such as hairdressing, holidays, car repairs, double glazing and repairs to domestic appliances”
and the relevant paragraph reads:

“If the goods are faulty within the first 6 months of the contract, it will be for the trader to show he is not at fault. After that time, or if the service is faulty, it is for you to solve the problem”

Martin

[andy2]

Re: UKWG charter – spares warrany

If the goods are faulty within the first 6 months of the contract, it will be for the trader to show he is not at fault. After that time, or if the service is faulty, it is for you to solve the problem”

This could be the basis for many suppliers giving a six month warranty (probably on the advice of their solicitors).

“It is for you to solve the problem” implies that after this period the onus is upon the consumer to prove his case, probably in a civil court.

The important point is that this again implies strongly that after the six month period bodies such as trading standards are not interested.

So where does this leave the supposed statutory obligation of a twelve month warranty that we originally started with?

The following page from the DTI is worth a look.

http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/facts … rvices.htm

Andy

[Author]

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