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First off, many thanks to whoever had the idea to create this forum, and to those who devote time to answering questions from people like me!
I’ve had a good search through old topics, and can’t find a definitive answer to my question – but enough information to realise that the question needs asking!We’ve recently moved to an old farmhouse and now have a largish pantry/dairy which seems the obvious place for an upright freezer. However, since we’ve been here, the temperature in the dairy has typically been around the 5C mark, which is where we’d like it. Looking at the technical stuff for various freezers, they all have a climate rating of SN or SN-T, which seems to suggest that they wouldn’t be suitable. (This includes a BEKO model which Comet :clown: claim will work in an outhouse, whilst other freezers in the store, including Liebherr, are specifically designated as unsuitable.)
I’ve seen other posts on this forum which seem to suggest that the problem really only applies to a fridge/freezer, so my question – is this really an issue for a stand-alone freezer, and if so is there a suitable freezer for this environment, and what problems am I going to hit if I just go ahead and buy a freezer to put in there anyway? Is a frost-free likely to be better/worse? I’ve seen some freezers (Liebherr for one) described as having heated walls – is this designed to overcome the problem, or do heated walls serve some altogether different purpose?
Any help and advice would be much appreciated!
Confused of Cumbria
Re: Freezer Placement
I’ve done some more research, including contacting some manufacturers, and it looks as though I’ve partly answered my question.
As far as I can establish, there is no refrigeration product, including chest freezers, designed to work at ambient temperature below 10C. This effectively rules out the placement in any unheated building!!!
At the very least, it invalidates the warranty.However, I still have a question. In the experience of the experts, how much of a problem is this, and what is the effect on the working of a freezer if it’s in a lower ambient temperature? In other words, do I have to rule out putting a freezer where the temperature is only 5C, or is the risk small?? Help!!
Re: Freezer Placement
In theory there is no reason why a freezer will not function correctly at low ambient temperatres, the main problem is condensation associated.
The low temperature effects the thermostat in fridge freezers and fridges as it ‘s “cut in” range is relatively high by comparison to freezers. Some try to overcome this with various “heating” devices to warm the phial.
Dave.
Re: Freezer Placement
Thanks for that information – it makes sense! I assume the manufacturers are playing safe with their stated lower limit of 10C for freezers. I reckon I’ll go ahead and buy a freezer to put in the pantry.
I’ll be keeping a dehumidifier running in the same room as the freezer, so I guess this might help with the condensation issue?Re: Freezer Placement
Condensation can be a very real and serious issue. If it enters the insulation, which is often “open” on the underside of a chest freezer it will negate the effect of the insulation and lead to the formation of an ice-ball on the outside.
This is unrepairable and I have seen it happen to some units in an unheated environment within twelve months, especially on lower cost ones with thin insulation.
In other words, it’s not worth the risk.
K.
Re: Freezer Placement
I can confirm that condensation can be a problem – my Whirlpool chest freezer is creating quite a pool of water in my unheated utility room – I’m currently living in an old farm cottage as well. See post viewtopic.php?f=33&t=9429
The first unit was replaced under warranty when the problem bceame apparent after about 10 months. Whirlpool are trying to wash their hands on the current unit stating the 10 degree limit. I’m a little bemused by the problem as I would have thought the insulation was there to prevent room air from condensing regardless of the ambient air temperature – if the surface of the insulation is cold enough to create a large amount of condensation in a room with an average temperature of 7-8 degrees then how would it be much better if it were 2-3 degrees warmer in the room? Surely the bottom surface of the freezer would still cool the air to below dew point and therefore cause condensation. So far there is no sign of any ice build up, but the water has pretty much ruined the laminate floor on which the freezer stands.Re: Freezer Placement
NeilB wrote:I’m a little bemused by the problem as I would have thought the insulation was there to prevent room air from condensing regardless of the ambient air temperature
The insulation is there purely to minimise temperature loss from within the appliance and not without. Condensation forms on the outside surface of any appliance (including things like double glazing) capable of heat retention not just fridges and freezers.
+10 degrees Celsius is recognised by most refrigeration manufacturers as the cut-off point to guarantee minimal atmospheric reaction to the dreaded “dewpoint”. Below that temperature and you’ve got yourself a problem. 🙁
Re: Freezer Placement
In fairness the manufacturer will almost always, without fail, publish the operating requirements and if the use falls outside those requirements then really it’s down to you. Like any other equipment, you don’t (or shouldn’t) expect it to do something that it was not designed to do.
Whether the person selling the equipment is aware of this and actually asks the right questions at point of sale is really the issue. Had you been given the correct advice when buying then the outcome would most likely have been totally different.
There are (or were) chest freezers particularly that were designed to work in low ambient temperatures, the old Asko range of about ten years ago springs to mind, but they were considerably more expensive than most others and often, even when advised correctly, a lot of customers I spoke to decided to “take a chance” to save a few quid. Often that turned out to be a false economy.
But now with many of the big stores and especially many internet sellers it’s just a white box that does the job. The lack of product knowledge by a lot sales people these days is just absolutely staggering.
K.
Re: Freezer Placement
Thanks for all the information.
Given the number of people who must stick a freezer in their garage, probably unaware that it’s not recommended, this must be quite a widespread problem.
Before abandoning the idea altogether, I’m still wondering if a dehumidifier running in the same room will prevent the problem, or maybe if placing a small greenhouse type electric tubular heater near the freezer would do the trick (even raising the freezer on a platform and putting a heater underneath?) Any thoughts?
I’m also still wondering what is the purpose of heated side walls on some frezzers? I assume that this has nothing to do with the ambient temperature issue, but it’s got me intrigued… (Simple minded……)Re: Freezer Placement
patr wrote:(even raising the freezer on a platform and putting a heater underneath?) Any thoughts?
Not a great idea really, better to purchase a small low wattage greenhouse style fan heater that has a ‘Frost setting’ on it. Leave it switched on and whenever the temperature falls below a certain point, the fan heater switches on for a while 💡
patr wrote:I’m also still wondering what is the purpose of heated side walls on some frezzers?
Usually to prevent the door seal sticking 😉
Re: Freezer Placement
Yep, it’s a big problem indeed and when we’re put in the position where we have to explain this to a customer it’s, shall we say, difficult for we service engineers. 😉
Dehumidifier won’t help I shouldn’t think, it’s the temperature that’s at issue the moisture is merely a result of that and I doubt that most would be up to the job anyway. You also have to ask at what point it stops being financially viable as now you’re running two appliances to do one job, hardly eco-friendly or wallet-friendly.
A small heater is actually likely to make the problem worse. Don’t ask, just trust me on this one. 😉
The heated walls aren’t really heated walls. It’s the hot return pipe inside theinsulation that is used to heat and dissipate condensation around the door seals in hot weather or hot climates. It’s known as an anti-condensate line. It is of little or no use in this situation and there would not be enough heat generated to clear the entire cabinet in low ambient temperatures, added to which you have lower running times.
K.
Re: Freezer Placement
patr wrote:(even raising the freezer on a platform and putting a heater underneath?) Any thoughts?
Keep heat away from the fridge but heat the room instead. It’s better to purchase a small low wattage greenhouse style fan heater that has a ‘Frost setting’ on it. Leave it switched on and whenever the temperature falls below a certain point, the fan heater switches on for a while 💡
Re: Freezer Placement
Sounds like I’m stuffed. I don’t particularly want to heat the whole room, as it makes an excellent cool store as it is. I suspect that if I asked about the possibility of building an insulated closet in which to stand the freezer there’d be a whole new list of problems to do with ventilation, in-closet heating etc etc. Right?
kwatt’s point about the level of information available in-store is well made. I was blissfully unaware of the 10C issue until I went into Comet and noticed that the freezers I was looking at were described as not suitable for outhouses (useful information). I quizzed the salesman and he muttered something about 10C and “cheap thermostats” – this on a megabuck Liebherr model. I was then pointed at a cheap Beko model, which was claimed to be suitable for placement in an outhouse. (Same information on the Comet website.) When I had a look at the FAQ’s on Beko’s own website up came the information that minimum ambient temperature was 10C. So I could’ve taken Comet at their word and bought a Beko freezer in the firm belief that it would “work correctly” (Comet’s description), and in fact ended up with something with identical restrictions to every other freezer in the store, and probably a whole lot worse. (It would be far too cynical to suggest that maybe a Beko isn’t expected to last long enough for the ambient temperature issue to become a problem, so I won’t.)
Just goes to show how useful it can be to trawl round with Google and hit a site like this one. Thanks again, guys, and if anyone does come across a freezer that genuinely is suitable for my needs, I’d be very grateful to hear.Re: Freezer Placement
Martin wrote:Keep heat away from the fridge but heat the room instead. It’s better to purchase a small low wattage greenhouse style fan heater that has a ‘Frost setting’ on it. Leave it switched on and whenever the temperature falls below a certain point, the fan heater switches on for a while 💡
That’s actually likely to create a hotspot and only make the problem worse still especially in an unheated space. It will also create a temperature differential where the hot air hits cold metal as it kicks in, the results are pretty obvious of that.
Putting a fridge, fridge freezer or freezer in a a “closet” will produce exactly what you’ve surmised Pat. You get a heat build up at the top and ergo the same problems all over again and some new ones to boot. Like when summer comes (even a UK one) the temperature inside the cabinet will rise exponentially and eventually probably overheat the compressor, it’ll cut out and you get defrosted food at best if it doesn’t burn the compressor out.
The salesperson (as usual IME of the sheds) is totally wrong, the thermostat has got nothing to do with the control of the ambient temperature, it can only accomodate differing ambient values by regulating the cabinet’s internal temperature. I do so wish they’d actually train these people with at least a basic understanding of the products that they sell like most of the independents do.
One of the big problems is that to engineer for a normal indoors temperature range of 15-35oC is not too bad and that would cover most homes across Europe, but when you go outside that range you start to get into acclimatised refrigeration which is generally designed to work under certain conditions, i.e high or low ranges of ambient temperature. The classic example is “tropicalised” refrigeration which is designed to work under duress in tropical temperature and humidity, normally the compressor is more robust to cope with extended period of running and the stats are set differently to what we would consider to be normal.
And this is why sticking refrigeration products in areas of “extreme” conditions just can’t be done. Even putting a fridge (etc.) in a conservatory is a really, really bad idea as just imagine the temperature that painted black metal gets to under direct sunlight. Or, as is the case here, if the temperature drops down below 0oC. You just kill them.
The worst bit is that as the manufacturer has specified under what conditions that the appliance will work or not, they are quite within their rights to say that it wasn’t installed in accordance with their instruction and are quite entitled to wash their hands of it.
K.
Re: Freezer Placement
kwatt wrote:
Putting a fridge, fridge freezer or freezer in a a “closet” will produce exactly what you’ve surmised Pat.That’s saved me a bit of work, then. 😀
I forgot to mention the other stunning piece of advice that Mr Comet gave me – “the problem doesn’t exist with chest freezers – you can put them anywhere.” Maybe I’ll go back and see if I can get that in writing……
Sad thing is that without the benefit of the advice from you guys, I’d have believed him.
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