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Before i start i want to point out that these are my opinions and mine alone, i am not on any trade body or steer any group that is developing any ideas and assosiations with in our Trade. I do expect that i will be slapped down and told what a fool i am.
I have done this Profession, and yes we are a profession, since leaving school (nearly 30 years ago), i class myself as a reasonable quality engineer and a reasonable sort of person, i now believe that our Profession is at a point where it is losing Quality professionals through retirement, with very few joining from school, and some just moving on to trades that they feel will pay them more wages, i fear that we will hit a point where we will be so lacking in numbers that an independant home appliance service will be extinct in many areas of the country, which will leave the consumer with no choice but to use a manufacturer for service or simply replacing the product.
I see many people amongst us and they are very clued up and they are the movers and shakers with in our profession and much of what they say we should listen to, but the fundemental problem we have is that we are not recognised as a PROFESSION. Going to all the exspense in time and money to get recognition for “Trade Bodies” is all very well, but what is it going to be a trade body of? The trade bodies that exist for other professions have great relevence and power.
We need to press for Profession Recognition from the Goverment, then we can have a Trade Body to adminster, evaluate, examing, test and register its members, this would then bring recognition, industry standards and Insurance recogonition, this would then squeeze the cowboys out amongst us that dont want to meet minimum standards, it could bring the day when its not only gas appliances that would loose Insurance cover if not installed by a registered Gas Safe company but installations and repairs of Household Electrical Appliances too,( all service providers pay a premium for gas repairs), the knock on affect would be all the service providers shipping out work on behalf of manufacturers and such would have to use registered companies and the price they have to pay would have to increase acordingly, the manufacturers would have to increase the basic cost of the appliance to pay for the guarantee period, the cowboys with no insurance and no true skill will be removed, their days of putting the customer at risk and ripping them off would be numbered, the days of service providers paying peanuts and employing sub standard engineers would finish, the amount of appliances scrapped would reduce, more appliances would be repaired, and there would be many more advantages. Then we truly would be a PROFESSION.At the moment anyone can be a member of a trade body, it means nothing as we all have seen that there is cowboys amongst them, how can this possibly work?
NIgel
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
The industry isn’t dead yet, look at the 0800 etc, growing and backed by money.
Smaller businesses will also survive.
Medium not so lucky, if you employee a few guys, you’ll struggle.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Okay, i am going to say it, Lee8 get off my topic, you have no relevence to it and you have no sensible input to it.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Sorry Dr but I thought that was quite a sensible comment by Lee8 and if you are not willing to allow reasonable replies then what is the point of posting in the first place?
FranzRe: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Point taken, my appologies Lee8, i should read my own post, i did expect to be slapped a bit.
What i will do is wait a few days then i will respond to Lee8’s post.Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
I also think he as a point the bigger business have the money backing them big contracts, spares, tech info the all singing/dancing websites etc etc plus multi million pound company’s backing them so they can ride it out a hell of lot longer, which in turn will place them in a stronger position in the future. smaller one man bands have lower overheads so although they will struggle they wont struggle or have as much pressure as the medium size company’s who have all the overheads of keeping shops, offices, vans on the roads and people in jobs that is a lot of pressure to deal with especially with some of the rates on offer.
It would be of great benefit and significance if we was classed as a profession i totally agree. Although most of us are already more qualified/experienced then some of our counterparts in other profession’s just look at some of the messes and disasters they leave behind that we see on a daily basis by so called professionals they should be ashamed of themselves! But people rate them above us makes my blood boil.
As for the future we will always be needed in some form of capacity or another.
Phil.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
I think the point the Dr is making
1 We need to be regulated and certificated as Domestic appliance engineers,as a plumber or electrician is, when kids leave school they could go to college study and leave with qualifications to send a cv out as a professionally part trained domestic appliance engineer and certified.
2 The engineers who are gas safe registered at present and who work on the whole range of gas appliances i.e natural gas lpg and absorbsion refrigeration are more qualified than a general heating and plumbing engineer who would get paid double for call out and labour charges by an insurance company or a private house hold than we do as just being a cooker engineer.
3 I could be wrong but i am led to believe that in most larger organisations the average age of a domestic appliance engineer is mid 50s so as all these guys retire if our profession is;nt regulated to make people leaving school see it as a genuine alternative and being recognised to being on par with being an electrician or plumber who is going to be repairing the whole range of appliances.
4 Possibly Lee8
5 0800 numbers are taking away our valuable chargable workload
Only my oppinion guys for what its worth
Ian.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
I have similar concerns as Nigel, I am a one man band but i do a lot of contract work but after being shafted by a lot of WP’s, Retailers and Manufacturers over the last 8 years I am now only doing a select few and I am also keeping a tight leash on the amount they owe me at any one time, this leads me to how we can change these problems, as Nigel quite rightly says unless we are classed as a PROFESSION we will hold no power at all ,no matter which Association represents us, so all these contracts can be issued to anyone purporting to be a ‘Professional Engineer’ without any qualifications or serious checks done like Gas Safe Register and probably to the cheapest option available to them.
There are no new Engineers or Apprentices joining this industry and there will be a serious shortage of qualified Engineers in all areas of the UK in the not too distant future, in some form or other Service Engineers will be always be needed so I feel we as an Industry have 2 choices, carry on as it is and let more of the so called Cowboys come into this industry or we can try and lobby directly to the Government for some accreditation as a Profession with proper reconised qualifications and help for us as small businesses with bringing in young people to be trained the correct way for the future good of our industry.
I applaud everything that the WTA and DASA are trying to do, but without the accreditation of being an actual PROFESSION and some sort of qualifying procedure to actually prove that a Company or individual Engineer is capable of undertaking the work in a safe and professional manner having Codes of Practice wil mean nothing to anyone in this industry, it seriously frightens me that we could possibly get members of WTA, DASA or whoever displaying the OFT and ISO9001 logos without having proved anything to anyone !
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
There is a future for us! DrDill is pretty much spot on with what he says about being recognised. There are people already working, quite hard in the backgrounds, to try to move closer to that goal!
As those at the meeting herd, DASA are actively persuing NVQ stability, and the WTA are making very good ground with the OFT. Things like these NEED to be done, before collectively looking to cement our trade as ‘Profesional’. It was also made pretty clear, that although we are different bodies, we DO want to work side by side when needed and WILL at some point work side by side that in my opinion, will get us ALL there in the end!
We finally have the benefit of having 2 Trade Associations, each working towards their own goals, but we HAVE to do the ‘Little things’ first, before going to any Goverment regarding all the above. When we as Associations have achieved things like OFT recognition, and NVQ stability, THEN we can start to progress on making our trade recognised, and achieve ‘Profesional’ status.
All this is not something we or anyone can do overnight, you’re all right in what you say, we all want the same end result, but we need to believe! Nothing will EVER change, unless we all believe that it can! And by being a member of either association, by speaking up, by all working towards the end result is a start!
My personal opinion is, we are where we are today, but if I think about 10yrs time, I HONESTLY believe, this trade will be valued more, and if not there by then, will be bl00dy close to it!
Adrian.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
I have to say it is hard sometimes, getting heard that is.
My example this week.
I have a meeting with a letting agent and his contractor, I do there appliances.
They want to replace the appliances in the flats as there getting old and paying me too much :rolls:
So Amica for me is an option, so Simon is contacted and Swift details passed, Swift contacted and I’m still waiting (2 weeks) for a price list.
So I ring Simon, who happened to be in the UKW meet 😆
Can I have details of other suppliers, as Swift arn’t so Swift.
This letting agent has around 450 flats in a University city, so all let out and there currently buying from Howdens around 2 intergrated washer dryers a week, but the appliances are crap.
So better for me being Amica agent to also supply and possible repair both in warranty and out of warranty, but i’m not about to lose any sleep over the deal, but its kinda frustrating that I’m all singing and dance Engineer, been Gas, Refrigeration and trade assossociated for many many yrs and yet in this current climate distributors don’t seem to be able to supply even the simplest request, so how can I rely on appliances to be delivered on time etc etc..
I’m just glad I don’t have the stress of large over heads anymore, been in the 5 figure turnover, shop owned before, was not healthy or profitable for the hours worked.
Now I prefer to do 4-5 calls a day, relaxed and earning far more than anyone I know who employees people.
As for our industry becoming more professional, the clients I visit seem to only care about price and speed, no one ever asks my qualifications etc etc, hell some of the muppets I’ve come across are trade associated and NVQ qualified.
Appliance Engineers are not high up the engineering ladder, in other EU countries there not classed as Engineers, but Technicians and qualifications are usually low and most are people who academically could not enter College or University, they attend a Technical College on day release, we are in the same skill level as plumbers and bricklayers.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Now I prefer to do 4-5 calls a day, relaxed and earning far more than anyone I know who employees people.
You really should have attended the meeting.
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Oh sh*t, I’m gonna get my head bitten off here…
Well, my view is that ‘you can hit back’. As you all know, I have a secondhand business but I also do repairs, so I combine the two. What is wrong with you doing you mainstream job whilst doing a few secondhand machines to boot. I get £85 – £200 for secondhand appliances and sometimes a little more. What if we all did it? Wouldn’t that hit the sheds a little.. OK you would still get the AH that wants cheap cheap but also wants it to be new, but if you retail some good stock secondhands along with your replacements then Im sure it would not only build revenue but it would do some damage to the sheds if we all did that practice. And, even high-quality secondhand goodies need repairing after a while.
George … Just putting my earphones on.. please wait a few minutes before replying.
P.S. Lee8 Please .. You know I don’t normally respond to your rantings, but I’m going to respond this time…. Your post above sounds like a finger pointing exercise at Simon, just because you are pissed off… If you need to complain about a ‘business practice’ or ‘lack of’ of someone… please PM them or email them instead of posting what could be embarrassing or potentially damaging to their business if posted on this forum. The fact that Simon was at the meeting is rather like ‘Sorry I am on holiday’ or like ‘trying to get me on a Sunday’ regardless of the fact that you don’t take holidays or the fact that you work on Sundays… it is a personal choice… I am not picking on you but you really do need to think before you post…
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
lee8 wrote:I have to say it is hard sometimes, getting heard that is.
They want to replace the appliances in the flats as there getting old and paying me too much :rolls:
So Amica for me is an option, so Simon is contacted and Swift details passed, Swift contacted and I’m still waiting (2 weeks) for a price list.
So I ring Simon, who happened to be in the UKW meet 😆
Can I have details of other suppliers, as Swift arn’t so Swift.
This letting agent has around 450 flats in a University city, so all let out and there currently buying from Howdens around 2 intergrated washer dryers a week, but the appliances are crap.
So better for me being Amica agent to also supply and possible repair both in warranty and out of warranty, but i’m not about to lose any sleep over the deal, but its kinda frustrating that I’m all singing and dance Engineer, been Gas, Refrigeration and trade assossociated for many many yrs and yet in this current climate distributors don’t seem to be able to supply even the simplest request, so how can I rely on appliances to be delivered on time etc etc..
If you came to the meeting then you would have met them.
I havent swift number to hand, but I belive your rep is Paul Harper and he lives on your door step.
I will get it posted as soon as.Amica do not do Washer dryers, nor at the moment any tumble dryers so this will not help you on this front.
However swift have a large range of built in and freestanding products so dont rule them out, not sure why they havent contacted you probably just an oversight.
But if you do want others there are portway and inmans who also stock Amica but not as much in stock.
But to get on back on track and return to the topic
Yes there is a future.
So why are you all so negative?
We cant do this alone as you know you get screwed over, as Adrian said the only way is to work together, its not a quick fix or overnight soloution its going to take time.
You guys are obviously quite intelligent and have a lot to say so why not put your experience, knowledge and skills where your tying fingers are and work with us, we want the same result at the end of the day.
Join us and help gain this recognition we so rightly deserve.
Steven
Re: The Future…….. is there one for this industry.
Is there a future for the industry… of course there is.
It would be bordering on idiotic to think that there wasn’t and, there’s no offence intended in that comment at all toward the OP or anyone else.
What form, shape or path that future will follow are all up for debate and subject to change as the industry evolves to operate in the conditions in which it finds itself.
I’d much rather try to be a part of trying to shape the industry for the repairers as not.
I don’t believe in regulation. I don’t think that regulation earns you the respect to be qualified as a “profession”, all it does is create a mini-cartel such as Part P and Gas Safe does. It creates an elite group that can afford to become qualified and then acting as a pseudo monopoly they then proceed to charge what they will for their service, it basically legitimises monopolistic behaviour in large part. And, I don’t think it’s achievable or, certainly not achievable in the near future. Such a system may well raise the bar so far as charges are concerned, yes but, it would not eliminate the few rogue traders out there left these days and in fact could actually serve to produce more of them.
Cause and effect.
So, you have to work with what you have or you have to try to shape the system to suit your purpose.
I was listening though and the comments yesterday on some of these topics (there’s a few in this thread) are noted.
K.
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