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We have recently been called to a Bosch Washing machine and the customer tells us that the machine was working through a cycle and got to the middle of the spin cycle when the electricty supply was interupted with a power failure from the energy supplier. When the power was resumed the machine would not work with all the lights flashing on the facia and no program could be selected. The customer has stated that the power cut has caused this failure and wanted us to repair the appliance.
Having removed the power module there is no evidence of blown components or tracks being blown. Fitting a new Power module has cured this problem and we have checked the machine for insulation and motor etc just in case.
However the customer let it be known when we were there that they had been in contact with the energy supplier and said they wanted them to meet the costs of repair as the power cut and claimed mains spike is responsible for the failure of the power module. The energy supplier has refused saying that its not their policy to meet such costs, they also went on to say that the machine and any appliance come to that should have internal electrical safeguards to prevent this type of situation and that its a requirement in european electrical standards for all electrical appliances to meet these requirements. The customer then called Bosch and they were evidently aware of this requirement and said that indeed their appliances met this requirement by the inclusion of such safegaurds ! the customer has raised issue with Bosch and they are sending one of their engineers to look at the machine to test these overload components !
The customer said also that the energy supplier said that were aware that about 8 other people in another area had such problems as well but they would not be meeting any claim either.The customer wants us to furnish a work report stating the cause of the failure but I cannot be certain that a spike was responsible for this matter and it could have been just coincidence that this all occured. I shall not be giving such a report other than to outline the circumstances and what we have done in the matter.
The question then ( Finally ) is, are any of you aware of this european regulation or is it BS, and what other than a mains filter do appliances incorporate to fend off this type of mains problem ? If the mains filter is what they are talking about mains spikes, lightening strikes can be tens of thousand of volts and any device must be capable of employment within nano seconds to disconnect high loads, that being the case when was the last time any of us were called out to replace such components ?in such a situation.
I knew of someone who had a bad spike which damage a lot of household electrical appliances and the power company sorted that all out for the householder.
Re: A letigious Society ?
BS EN 55014-1 covers Household appliances, it isn`t BS, but some modules will have the capability of protecting the appliance, householder, but will render the module useless after such power surges.
The standard does not mean a device must be reset without some component change.
Usually though the Interference Capacitor is sufficient, also in LG products you may have notice a ring with some copper around it in older appliances and in later ones there will be a plastic tube about an inch in length, similar to one found on computer mains leads, these protect the Electronics.
http://www.evs.ee/Checkout/tabid/36/scr … 09_en.aspx
http://www.ce-mark.net.cn/en/shownews.asp?ID=493
When I worked for BSH in Spain I was changing modules virtually on every call, some due to power surges and mostly due to cockroach infestation.
The surges happened mainly around Gibraltar area as they have some serious thunder storms, we never did them Free of Charge and it happened to laundry, dishwashers and hobs, BSH never got involved it was always the power company who paid as the surge protection was there responsibility and they accepted it.
EU rules seem to be different in Spain, we never had meggers, Earth loop testers etc and it was not a requirement to test, there call sheet info did not have any provision to record them even if you wanted to cover your back.
Working for BSH in the UK i never had a call to check an appliance for failed safety internally after a surge, had a few to replace components at the cost to the client who claimed it from the supplier.
Re: A letigious Society ?
Lee,
Having a read through those active server pages seems to relate more to RF bound interference than overload tolorence. The ferite copper wound coils / toroidal ferrite chokes are a method of dissapating electromagnetic interference just like ferrite rings used on their own or in combination, many computer cables use that kind of RF reduction and you can see that on some internal mains filter boards inside some machines and microwaves.
On the other hand controlling high level mains spikes & surges requires other kinds of components, most of the PCB boards I see dont have this incorporated in their design, you only have to look at the Hotpoint Interlocks that short and kill the modules ! the frequency of PCBs which are not lacqured and the non sophistication of some manufacturers soldering in a world where other technologies have surface mount techniques etc. Sometimes surges are caused by components within the appliance which might not kill a board but weaken its ability to withstand others, internal fusing or properly designed surge protection on boards in our field seem to be a rarity unless someone knows different.
Companies that specialise in surge protection use semi conductors and the like to provide surge protection. To stop these surges damaging equipment, incorporate semi-conductor devices called Metal Oxide Varistors (MOV) and gas tubes, which act like a variable resistor. When no surges or spikes are present, the MOV allows electricity to flow normally, if a surge is detected the MOV diverts the surge harmlessly to earth.
Have not seen that on the Indesits, Hotpoints or Bosch’s
Re: A letigious Society ?
The fact an EU directive or standard exist may not mean its implemented by the manufacturers.
There only interested in the bare minimum standard to get the appliance approved.
The fact the module fails could be sufficent enough to cover any regs.
Do you think a company such as Beko who sell their modules for £15.00 will increase costs to prevent damage.
I spoke to a contact in Miele, even they are sourcing products in both China and Spain, four Engineers walked out of Miele a few weeks ago, even the top brands are squeezing costs.
There certainly not interested in protecting Mrs Smiths appliance from power surges, unless there legally bond and even then it will be just enough to cover there butts.
Re: A letigious Society ?
well you know thats exactly my view of the situation, but it does not help when a customer calls up a major energy supplier who tells them that the machine should comply with standards to protect it from power surges and spikes, thus giving the impression to the customer that the machine they have may not be built to such a standard, it further complicates matters when they then call up the manufacturer in this case Bosch and they agree with what the energy supplier has stated.
This as far as I can see is a smoke screen
Re: A letigious Society ?
I would suggest this case is about blame and looking good.
I have done Insurance inspections on power surges that resulted in the Micro, DVD, computer and TV needing replacing.
Every time it was the power company picking up the tab.
If the only evidence is a faulty module with everything else OK, the client will be responsible.
A faulty module on its own is no evidence of a surge, then again no other evidence also does not completely rule it out.
But if BSH protection devices which are covered as sufficient to all the relevant codes and regs but blown and damaged, then the power company has to investigate, but they can argue that the protection devices where faulty at the time.
Induction hobs are well protected with E codes, there protecting several hundred pounds worth, expensive to BSH if they arn`t protected.
Spikes occur often but usually not noticed in most cases
Re: A letigious Society ?
Mains spikes when they occur are always recorded by the electricity supplier. It’s a legal requirement in fact and that being the case any reports of mains power surges in any location can easily be ratified by said electric company. You say that when the customers electricity was interrupted and on the resumption of power the dishwasher failed but never mentioned if your customer reported the fault to them directly? Instead your customer accused the electric company of causing the fault and brandished a claim for compensation?
Prime example of compensation culture gone mad and roping you into it in the bargain…..NICE ONE!
I wonder if there actually was an excessive mains spike recorded on that occasion? My guess is no. And the Bosch washer should cope with reasonable excessive mains surges (spikes) up to a point higher than their mains input spec. Moreover the mains filter would cope with loads of excess volts anyway but the control module would not. But prove it you can’t in this case as no visible damage is evident.
More importantly the electric company claim no mains spike in the area so at that point I (if I were you that is?) would exit stage left. 😉
Just out of interest, is the location out in the sticks? Overhead power lines feeding the shack? Or in suburbia (probably the latter)….I should start running…. 😀
I’m curious too about Lee’s experiences in Spain on the subject and the thunderstorms especially? Cockroaches too – fascinating stuff.
Re: A letigious Society ?
Firstly the location of this incident is in a highly populated area
Secondly the customer when faced with a non working washing machine calls the repairer, in this case us. They say it was working ok until the power
went off and when the power came back on it would not work and they came to the laymans conclusion that it was when the power was resumed that the damage was done. Enter us, having been unable to find any evidence of a spike we order the new power pcb, when we go back the customer has had dialogue with the power company who have provided her with the jobnumber of the fault and have then told her that even if there was a spike that the equipment must be compliant with the regs. Hence the customer calling up Bosch who are going to send a engineer free of charge to investigate, however by the time he arrives the machine has been repaired by us.We will have to wait and see what happens as bosch have stated their appliances meet the regs and if that is the case then how come the machine failed ?
Re: A letigious Society ?
squadman wrote:
We will have to wait and see what happens as bosch have stated their appliances meet the regs and if that is the case then how come the machine failed ?
Its possible the module is designed to self destruct, like a fuse or mains supressor does, in so protecting the appliance user.I’m not sure, but that may be the appliances fail safe, if the suppressor does not react, then the module is last resort.
I believe the main reason for the regs is to protect the user and property, protecting components could be secondary, in the case of Domestic Appliances.
The regs are expensive to buy, I`ve never read them, my role was to report faults back, others had the pleasure of dealing with clients.
So for a washing machine or Dishwasher with limited electronics I believe the rules are slightly different to say a server etc etc.
If the only component to fail was the module and the supplier has no record of a surge then your client will have to accept that there was a weakness on the board and the sudden switching on and off of the mains caused the board to fail.
Its possible that had the power not gone off and back on, the module may have failed next time the client switched on the appliance to use it.
Its probably just a case of unfortunate coincidence.
People seem to have forgotten items can break for no reason and nobody else is responsible.
Re: A letigious Society ?
If the only component to fail was the module and the supplier has no record of a surge then your client will have to accept that there was a weakness on the board and the sudden switching on and off of the mains caused the board to fail.
Its possible that had the power not gone off and back on, the module may have failed next time the client switched on the appliance to use it.
Its probably just a case of unfortunate coincidence.
You know Lee it may be a act of pure coincidence that is of course possibe but by accepting that the board may be the short circuit protection is an expensive way of accomplishing what is a simple task.
How easy would it be to make sure all PCB components were protected by anti surge protection whereby the anti surge protection disconnected the mains where the incoming voltage was higher that the rated anti surge design. That would be chaper than a PCB, dont get me wrong this all makes work for us but I just wish if there is a situation where a large surge has cuased the failure of household appliances that energy supppliers dont try and pass the buck.Re: A letigious Society ?
squadman wrote:
You know Lee it may be a act of pure coincidence that is of course possibe but by accepting that the board may be the short circuit protection is an expensive way of accomplishing what is a simple task.
The manufacture wants to sell as many components as possible and I want to be the one replacing them, so I prefer that method.
How easy would it be to make sure all PCB components were protected by anti surge protection whereby the anti surge protection disconnected the mains where the incoming voltage was higher that the rated anti surge design.
Some country have surge protection fitted at the mains consumer units.
It will not protect all surges, such as lightening strikes.
Gone are the days when boards would be repaired, unless you use QER.
The module as a whole could be reused, cost dictate that you replace, which helps the planet.
If you see these on a schematic diagram of a Module it is protected by surges there used to protect the components, there called transient voltage suppression diodes and generally render the PCB useless until replaced.
Re: A letigious Society ?
i dont know if its worth noting, or valid but i never order a pcb, motor, or other high value spare – in fact anything over £35 trade, prior to the customer paying for it up front. been bitten thrice too many times by my good nature… our job is to get the machine back on the road. if they want to squabble about whos paying its up to them, but it wont be me any more because the customer can have my receipt as proof work has been done.
had it last year where a gas cooker (new world g50si) for a tenanted property failed on install. unknown to us it was a known issue on about half their production run. we wanted n/w to replace with diff gdha alternative. they refused as they wanted to fix it. 3 attempts at fixing over course of 8 weeks, and they still didnt sort it. we said they should now pay for the uninstall and reinstall of a new rep cooker. they refused saying they offered a uplift. proper night mare as they eventually conceded to uplift(!) but we had to pay for the uninstall/reinstall by the gas safe engineer. i said they could get one of their engineers to do it instead but they refused. then it gets better because of the hassle the tenant witheld 15{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of her rent for that month (£65) claiming it was due to breach on contract which the letting agent insisted on deducting from our invoice, because the contract of sale was with us.
therefore we have paid £115 for this cooker, invoiced for £175 delivered, paid for one of the corgi engineers we use for our gas cookers to install it for £62, along with supplying a replacement £120 tricity and so we paid out £265 in total, 6 hours of mantime @ £10/hr exchanging and being at the property to let the gdha engineers in and supervise and took £175 back meaning we made a total loss of £150.
yet gdha wont think of entertaining paying any of that even though they have knowing allowed distribution of faulty appliances, and not even bothered to recall them so they can be reworked at there own premises.
ive given up on chasing them as i have to wait 10 minutes on the phone then have to spend 20 minutes explaing everything from the off even time i fone to chase up whats going on. just wondered legally where do they stand?
Re: A letigious Society ?
gandh1 wrote: just wondered legally where do they stand?
They can afford a top lawyer to tie up in court.
A lesson I learned a long time ago, I had a business that was an agency, we had several thousand of pounds worth of goods returned in January after the Xmas sales.
Customers going ape, had to replace etc etc.
We owed money that was held by us until problems sorted out.
After several more months of hassle we decided to end the contract, this we could do according to our contract and they had to repurchase the remaining stock at trade from us, this would wipe out the debt plus a bit extra.
No chance as soon as they received notice of this, they entered there local High Court, next we no we get the Sheriff into our shop to seize goods.
We explain the problems, show the contracts and the letters, Sheriff sided with us and held off possession, lucky for us as he could have closed the shop there and then and emptied us out of business, he allowed us to continue trading until we went to court.
So off to the high court in Manchester, our solicitor advises no problems, judge should have no issue etc etc, he couldn’t attend Manchester as its a 4 hrs drive, so he appoints a local law firm.
We arrive at court with an hour to spare to go over case with the appointed solicitor, only the solictor could not make it, so sent a trainee, who turned up 5 minutes after the case was called.
The big boys sent up a partner in one of the UK`s leading firms in Manchester, we get well and truly screwed, the judge pi888 at the late time, no solicitor and basically got his back up as we withheld funds.
So we end up having to pay the debt, the loss from Xmas plus another couple of grand for there legal team and stock.
Not a good day.
Even when you have a contract you get screwed, judges don’t view business as peoples lives, it is black and white and it matters which lodge there members of.
My experience is the big boys don’t give a dam about there clients or the people selling there products.
I hate it when only the bankers in the UK are rubbished, the whole of the country has an issue with power and money, the bankers aren’t alone.
Re: A letigious Society ?
Finally a conclusion has been reached, manufacturer called several times asking about us replacing or refunding. I have told them that in this instance we are prepared to offer a repair with them supplying the parts FOC and us providing the labour FOC in order that we meet our obligations. Turns out it is them who have or are suggesting replacement or a refund.
They have considered this proposal and have now after all this decided to supply their service agent with the parts necesarry to effect repairs.
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