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Having had re affirmed that Walter lies when the occasion requires I had some thoughts on Dasa and where it may end up after the next AGM.
The Jfitz affair shows that when it suits the council to do so it completely disregards its own constitution and makes the rules as it goes along.
To explain; the membership of Dasa is the business involved not the individual, therefore when JFitz completely divorces from The Sevice Group (which he already has but is not admitting to) the membership stays with the company. By default (because Dasa constitution does not allow for it as its backward in its conception) he is no longer eligable to claim to be a Dasa member or a council member. The new company he works for has applied for membership we are told, however until it becomes a member JFITZ can not be a member of Dasa or the representative of the new company. By Dasa rules and constitution the new company is a provisional member and therefore can not seek council membership for at least 12 months. Thats it then, JFITZ and Circuit Tech have to wait.So why has Scott completely disregarded the rules allowing (and it should be in the minutes as it was said during the council meeting and they were recorded) JFITZ to resign and be re instated at the next council meeting?
Why has Jason already told me they were going to fudge the issue of JFITZ to keep him involved?
It is quite evident that closer ties with UKW is not an issue most of the officers want. So consider a scenario from the next AGM. Who is going to be the chair of Dasa?
suggestions 1) Patterson will get the vote of mark and jason
2) Russel will get scott and neal and several who see the progression from vice chairman to chairman as his natural progression.
3) The fly in the soup is JFitz.
Because no auditing of voting is ever carried out, ever, and results are never published or offered, it will be easy to maintain that Dasa Officers and Council members will alter little.
Also because no scrutiny of postal votes being sent or received has ever been carried out, with no suggestions being made to the general membership of whom would like to stand for what position, the whole affair will be rigged again as it always is.
What other organisation would stick with the same Council who year on year deliver NOTHING, ot the membership.
The real point is apart from the power seekers no one cares or is very interested. Dasa as a trade association is defunct, useless, toothless and riddled with political agendas, as well as having no Plan or idea of what its trying to do as far as Amdea goes. To summarise, its dying on its feet.After all that crap my real question is, do we really want to join? Or do we put our energies and time into all of our schemes and watch from the sidelines and wait?
Kevin
Re: Dasa and UKW
kheath wrote:After all that crap my real question is, do we really want to join? Or do we put our energies and time into all of our schemes and watch from the sidelines and wait?
Well, I said it months ago and I’ve pretty much stuck by what I said then.
DASA as far as the industry goes is dead, it does nothing, even when it does it never tells anyone. Frankly I didn’t then and don’t now want any part of it, we, as UKW we can do far more with our own ideas and ideals.
From last week’s bullshit, the internal politics are far worse than I thought, everyone is watching their own interests and will quite happily twist the facts to suit.
Which can only lead to one conclusion, certain parties within DASA and some of the council members in particular are corrupt (highlight certain and some, as it’s not all) with only their own interests at heart.
I’m certain with Jason in control of the finances (as far as we know) that the member’s fees are dealt with accordingly and correctly, who’s to say that this may not change along with the chairmanship and treasurer after the AGM, should they both happen to be replaced.
To be frank, I’m sick of the “let’s see what happens at/after the next meeting” as that has gone on for too long, feck all happens anyway so I have no interest in it whatsoever apart from ensuring that those who continue to pay a defunct organisation monies get some form of value for it.
Dave.
Re: Dasa and UKW
Sometimes for the life of me I cant see what there is to be gained by the destruction of DASA. It is, for all it’s failing’s ( and I readily admit they are many) the only independant Trade association that the trade has.
UKW Ltd. is now to all intents and purposes a commercial venture and as the plans that were explained to me last week begin to unfold and come to fruition then ‘UKW THE COMMUNITY’ will by gradual degrees start to become secondry, out of the need to succeed commercially.
Let me say here and now, that I can see that a lot of what is about to unfold will be for the benifit of the independant trade. However I feel it would have been far better to have given the commercial side a different name, but that is your decision as it’s creators.
The fact remains that your motives from here on in will be called into question with regards the initial concept of UKW and where it is now heading.
Will people in time be asking themselves the question were we just used to create intrest in an idea just to make money for a select few. If so then are we any better than the Scoggins, Trubshaws or Hubby’s of this world.
I cant help feeling that it was an oppurtunity missed when you all decided to part company with DASA. As had you stayed we would now be in a position where most of the time wasters would have been removed and you would be in a position where you would have helped to create a stronger trade association. Where you could have encouraged people to get more involved, as you did with me.
Or is the idea to create a pseudo trade association as an extention of UKW Ltd. to be within the direct control of it’s directors. These are the questions that will be asked.
There are those in DASA who are dinosuars, there are one or two whose motives are questionable, but it’s only saving grace is that they can be called to account and argued about in open debate at any council meeting.
Or do I take it that it is a slow news week on the site so why not haul out the old DASA faithfull for another good slappin’ I’m begining to think that you guy’s are nearly as sad as me, because once upon a time you used to be original, where as I never was.
Sean
Re: Dasa and UKW
del wrote:Or do I take it that it is a slow news week on the site so why not haul out the old DASA faithfull for another good slappin’
Not at all Del, this is a closed forum only viewed by four people and I will not discuss DASA any longer in the trade or public forums as I’ve said before 😉
Dave.
Re: Dasa and UKW
Del,
First off I ain’t had a go at DASA in public and neither has Dave or Kevin, if it falls it falls on it’s own sword, not ours. I did have a pop at Walter (well kinda) in a mail and got hit with an explanation, I was going to leave it at that but the crap that then came from Scott required a reply. Should he wish to continue then I’m game, but he will look more a fool if he does so.
There seems a lot of emphasis on UKW being a Ltd company, DASA is just about the same only it carries the monicker of “trade association” and complies with it’s own rulebook. It still produces accounts, pays VAT, expenses, tax and all the other niceties just like the rest of us, tell me the difference? Really if that argument gets tossed up I’ll shoot it down so fast you won’t even see the bullets.
Any advantageous endeavour that we impliment has to be done on a commercial footing, people need paid, it’s that simple! I haven’t had a wage in two months due to the work I’ve been doing and I’m now getting grief over that from the Mrs and the bank, do you really think that was a decision that was taken lightly? Whilst we could make money from teh thing and I see no reason that we shouldn’t, in doing so we can bring massive benefits to the trade, what’s wrong with that? We’re not taking money from anyone without offering goods or services in return, far more tangible benefits that DASA has ever offered isn’t it? We’re even offering services free because others are prepared to pay for them when we, as an industry cannot do so, again, what’s wrong with that?
If we were a low-life corporate entity we’d charge for that, we don’t – simple!
The community around UKW is therefore vital and we will reward that community very handsomely for its efforts. I will not move away from that point of view.
People can call the motives into question all they bloody well like, doing it and giving the benefits without the need to gob off or slag someone is a far better approach IMO. We’ll get results, we’re already well on track to do just that.
DASA is fucking useless in its current format, let’s face it. It requires someone dynamic enough to steer it and bring it forward and, since they can’t afford that nor are they likely to be able to do so, it’s demise is almost a given. You have to remember what you get for your £200 or whatever, the opportunity to spend more cash attending meetings and a shitload of politics from the age that time forgot. Hardly an appealing propect to many, less so when you see the benefits afforded by DASA, the odd occasion where a WP may come along and offer you some work and… err… well that’s it really!
Is it any wonder that the organisation is failing? Membership is dropping year on year and that tells a tale in itself and the DASA council and primarily the officers seem to want to little to reverse that trend. So I ask you, why on Earth should we bail them out? Why should we even care if they don’t care themselves?
UKW has, by its very nature I suppose, already become a psuedo trade organisation in some ways but we’ll still never be an official one. That said we’ve had a few successes along the ways thus far and there’s more to come I’m sure. But just by being so high-profile within the industry and to the public I think we can do a lot of good for the industry, just because DASA isn’t getting the glory of that isn’t my problem, it’s DASA’s. If they’d got off their arses a few years ago they could have done something usefull, they had another chance when CH got the bullet and they had another chance at the last AGM. Just what have they done…
Correct… fuck all!
I’m not going to help DASA particularly, I tried that and they did fuck all with it all bar piss me off and then blow me off with that meeting although I do appreciate the circumstances of Mark. What grated me was the politics where it was being made out that it was all UKW’s fault that the meeting didn’t take place and you and I both know that that simply isn’t true. You also know that there was no alternative arrangements made, not one council member or officer was in touch with us until the Thursday evening from the email from Jason.
Much of the commercial side will be under a different name, that’s already been decided. If people don’t understand that we’re trying to give them something for nothing and build a worthwhile industry and niche for ourselves with value then that’s their problem, not mine. Thanks very much but I can see that it could save my business and offer a great long-term future, which is more than can be said for working for Merloni and the likes.
It’s about time that the DA service industry stood up for itself instead of being bullied by the big boys in the playground.
It is my intent to see that that happens.
K.
Re: Dasa and UKW
Sean, I for one are not going to slap Dasa, instead I want the opinions of the guys as to our position regarding joining, as associate members. I think they’ve answered that quite well.
My post highlights some problems for Dasa and the politics of it, which quite frankly I don’t need.
There’s no way this goes public, its in here where we can speak frankly and securely….no matter how sad that makes us 😆
Kevin
Re: Dasa and UKW
Del wrote:Sometimes for the life of me I cant see what there is to be gained by the destruction of DASA. It is, for all it’s failing’s ( and I readily admit they are many) the only independant Trade association that the trade has.
I thought this was an old thread and didn’t read the first two posts! 😳
To answer that point, it allows for change and right now change is what is needed IMO and has been for many years. They could have saved DASA if they’d tried and been a bit radical about it, but they wouldn’t go for it, either Kevn’s idea or mine. They also bombed Network DASA, the single most progessive move in decades. They are resisting any ties with UKW, again a move forward.
Just tell me this Sean, what has DASA done that has helped you?
Bearing in mind that through UKW you got the MFI work albeit under a DASA guise but it was Kevin and I that did it. You heard about the Merloni thing through UKW. You got support with that through UKW. We’ve tried in the background to sort your issues with CDSL.
So, you tell me, just what has DASA done for you and what commercial reason is there to stay in it?
K.
Re: Dasa and UKW
Okay, several vodka’s later, some chilling and a movie I’m still pissed off.
Sean,
Kevin has just told you how to fuck the vote up, take the DASA officers out and create a shadow of doubt should the need arise. If you require A to be joined to B and so on then just ask, but the answer’s there if you read it again.
But there’s a couple of retorts from me whilst I’m in the mood.
IF we were to take control of DASA, which would be pretty goddam easy given the right conditions, then all that would happen is that the accusation would be that DASA was being run for UKW. UWK was pulling the strings or that we had a conflict of interest or….
The list just goes on and on. We cannot be involved or take control, it’d be political suicide on our part, this has to play out whether that’s good or bad for DASA. I suspect, given that they either don’t listen or do fuck all to help themselves, that it will inevitably fold be that in six months or six years, I doubt that much is as certain. But that aside, I would again point to “relevance”, when it comes to DASA, where’s the relevance to the industry, primarily commercial aspects of it?
And yet again we’re back to, what is DASA, what is its aim, where is it going?
There’s no answers simply because they do not exist.
It’s a trade association alright, but one that doesn’t have an identity or purpose in the modern climate. It’s outdated, out-gunned and irrelevant.
It was set up in the late seventies to combat the “cowboys in the kitchen”, it failed.
No change through the eighties and nineties, it just trundled on and bumbled about making little impact.
It entered the new millenium and still had not changed in perspective or methodology due to Chris Hayter living in the past and thwarting progress.
In 2004 he was removed.
In 2005, show me any progress.
Even you’re pissed off with it just as we have been, you’ve now had first hand experience of just how fucking frustrating DASA is. It requires sweeping changes to be made and I doubt that they’ll happen anytime soon.
If you do take control of it then good luck, you’ll need it. I would also warn you that it my well turn out to be a poisoned chalice, but you’ve just been told how to do it if you wish to take it on.
For us there’s no choice, the die is cast. I chose the commercial route as it allows far greater flexibility and control on my part which I hope to use to great effect. To which end I have loads of real work to be doing, bringing real benefits to the trade without having to waste time pissing about with DASA.
K.
Re: Dasa and UKW
kheath wrote:After all that crap my real question is, do we really want to join? Or do we put our energies and time into all of our schemes and watch from the sidelines and wait?
Oh I’m so glad you asked that! 😆
The emotive and commercial response is a definite “NO!”.
The political response is “yes”.
It’s a fucking sheepish yes though. There’s no reason or call to do so other than that of political reasoning to do so, it would not benefit UKW in any way that I can see. It certainly wouldn’t benefit the users or subscribers at all, so there’s nothing to be gained other than political ground.
What I will not have is myself wasting my time chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, which where DASA is concerned certainly does not exist. It pisses me off that the organisation has virtually no representation in government that matters, takes money from those that can least afford it, weights the cost of associate membership in favour of those that screw their own members, sits with it’s thumb up it’s ass doing nothing and can’t even bring itself to comment or communicate much of anything to its membership even manages to exist!
Then when they have a metting half the buggers can’t be arsed to turn up giving various reasons for not appearing that most school teachers woudl fall about laughing at.
It’s a joke.
K.
Re: Dasa and UKW
Dave_Conway wrote:And people complain about the repeats on TV :duck:
Oh I know.
I dunno, I’ve just had it with the whole DASA thing. We gave it a really good shot and offered so much to them and they just fucked us all off.
Cest la vie.
Let’s just get on with it now.
K.
Re: Dasa and UKW
I still get the feelin’ we might be chuckin’ the baby out with the bath water.
The real problem is one of a clash of personalites. Ken, You have had you own run in’s with the likes of Walter & Scott. Kev, You have issues with Mark & Jason. I know that these guy’s have done you down in the past and as they make up 4 out of the 5 officers it does’nt help matters.Some of these issues are to do with DASA but a lot of e’m are not.
The other thing is that I do not expect you guy’s to be sidlined into takin seat’s as DASA officers, I know you are far too busy. Even if you wanted too. Dasa as you quite rightly say, would then be seen as a puppet of UKW.Just a few well placed phone call’s from you guy’s would encourage others to challenge the existing officers for their positions. People I hasten to add who are strong supporters of both organisations. Remember we dont need total control, just a majority.
UkW does not need to control Dasa, it just ask’s for a fair shake from it.
and to take it’s rightful place on the council.I can also see Dasa folding if there are no changes but once it’s gone it’s gone for good. Or I can see an even worse senario of where the manufacturers, and work providers take control of it through Amdea.
This move is the favoured option of some of the officers as they can then just walk away.I think there is still some mileage to be had out of Dasa as it is in a better position to get trainging funds/grants out of government than a private company.
One other point you do not need to remind me of the help I have had from you guy’s I have stated as much several times in post’s I have made.
But I have a long and excellent memory and I fully conceed that you and Kev were the ones that did the negociating and compilation of the dasanet network but this was done under the Dasa banner when you were both still involved and believed in it.
Also the CDA work came to me down the Dasa route.Another point is that you do not have to justify to me or anyone else the need to make a living out of UKW. God know’s you’ve poured enough of yourself into it at great personal cost. I just point out that this was not the original concept of its inception. It was just a completely personal view that the corporate side would have been far better off with a different name. As it’s detractors will use this fact over and over again.
As you can see lads I dont win myself any friends with my beliefs and I am just as strong at loggerheads when I go to dasa meetings.
But I am not a quiter just because the road gets a bit rocky and weather you believe it or not my committment to UKW is every bit as strong as anything I say or do for Dasa.Sean
Re: Dasa and UKW
Na Sean, it’s not really personal but yet agained they flew their colours in the recent email flurry by just out and out lying, both of them. If you read Walter’s mail and then Scott’s spot the mistake they made. 😉
I have no real issues with Mark, Jason or anyone else other than the fact that they’re not doing the job for DASA. Whithout an employee to run it I doubt anyone ever could.
We could influence the voting I guess, but right now without any real cause or someone to back, there seems little point. But if you want to take the thing over then we could likely help you.
Mark wants closer ties with AMDEA as he thinks that’s the way forward so that’s the way the things have been getting steered. If you don’t like it, kick up fuck about it, I commented but it fell on deaf ears.
BTW, who do you think gave John Hopwood a complete list of engineers around the country? 😉
UKW was always going to run itself by other means, if you read back right to the very start I said that it could be funded by other means without taking money off the guys and could in fact provide benefits in doing that. That is exactly what was said and exactly what has been done.
What happens is that people see you doing a bit better, or making a buck and think you shouldn’t, it’s just human nature especially in this industry. But at the end of the day, if we allow the guys to make money and protest their own businesses I don’t see them telling us to fuck off, do you?
There’s no questioning your opinion Sean, you’re just as entitled to it as any of us and prodding and getting answers is probably a good thing in the end.
K.
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