Do you prefer electronic timers?

[leavemetogetonwithit]

I think electronics in washing machines should be kept to a minimum.
I prefer a nice solid electro-mechanical timer which I can advance to spin or any other position I want to test anytime I want to.

I hope you all agree with me,(for once 😉 ).

If so, I have devised a strategy for bringing about a return to the old ways.

We should all increase our call out charge for any model which incorporates excessive electronics and,though this will be less popular,decrease slightly the call out charge for mechanical timer models.
This might lead to the public making the effort to vote with their feet for mechanical timers. That would make manufacturers sit up and take notice.

Is there still time? Are there any mechanical timers still out there at Curries?

[Phidom]

Re: Do you prefer electronic timers?

When I bought my first automatic it was a Servis Starlight, a push button computerised job. At the time I assumed they would all quickly go to solid state but this has only happened quite slowly. I’m sure it would be possible to design ultra reliable electronics for washing machines, even if they needed to be sealed like the various black boxes in modern cars. Sadly, the current offerings from the major manufacturers leave a lot to be desired so mechanical timers win by default.

[kwatt]

Re: Do you prefer electronic timers?

You’re fighting a losing battle there I’m afraid.

I suspect that electronics are cheaper to manufacture than a mechanical timer, easier and cheaper to ship and can be made to do a lot more. Apart from which customers seem to like them, until they go wrong that is and we mump about them.

The annoying thing about them to me is that they are, as spares, generally massively overpriced. In many cases, IMO, just a total rip off.

As for testing, yes I agree it’s a pain, but there’s not a lot you can do about it bar get the rates realistic for the extra time and effort.

K.

[Lawrence]

Re: Do you prefer electronic timers?

I was once told by someone at Servis that the reason that they had so many modules across there range,and no actual programmers anymore was because it was easier and cheaper to change your customers programme requirements with a PCB ,e.g one set of prog options for Curry’s and another for comet and yet another for powerhouse etc .
unfortunately there design team and build quality let them down ,remember the M 3022 that twisted the backplate blowing the module because the harness shorted everywhere ?
Lawrence

[andy2]

Re: Do you prefer electronic timers?

I think you are right about the cost Kenneth, even more so with the advent of surface mounted technology where the PCB is virtually untouched by human hand. Once the tooling cost is covered,these boards must cost peanuts relative to the cost to the customer, and certainly many times cheaper than its electro-mechanical counterpart.

To be fair electronic modules are pretty reliable (let me finish before you all jump on me).

Many faults are caused by external componants failing and taking out tracks / componants on the module. And this can happen on electro-mechanical timers too where contacts get welded or burned out due to a s/circ componant

Other common faults are often on componants that strictly speaking are not electronic – relays – due to the fact that they do all the donkey work in handling large currents.

The same applies to triacs which although electronic get all the hard work to do.

Apart from these stressed componants I believe that relative to their complexity they are reliable. Lets not forget that contacts burn out in e/m timers for the same reasons. How many HPT timers have you had where the ON/OFF switches or the heater contacts go faulty?

Because many of these modules use a switched mode power supply based around an IC I find that faults in this area are rare, unlike many of the earlier modules where wire wound resistors were a major culprit – great little earners though!

The main problem with Mr Merloni’s modules is their situation in the machine where they are prone to damp, the effect of which can be seen clearly on the modules surface and especially on the edge connector pads.
You just don’t see this sort of problem on Hoover, Zanussi, Hotpoint etc modules which are under the lid. Apart from this and one or two poorly routed tracks Merloni modules are probably no different to the others. After all the componants all come from similar suppliers, even the microcontroller IC’s probably begin life as a generic componant that is programmed for a specific manufacturer. Mr Merloni could probably make his modules much more reliable (if he wanted to) by giving the assembled PCB a quick spray with a waterproof coating on the track side, but this would still leave the connectors exposed.

I think the only machines that you might find using e/m timers in the near future are those from the far east. Because labour costs are so low they might be able to produce them (at least for a while) cheaper than the electronic version. I say this because the assy cost must be the most expensive aspect of e/m timers (but i might be wrong) and the initial cost of setting up a PCB assy line must be quite high.

I noticed that the Haier machines have a very simple e/m timer.

Personally I like electronic modules as long as the fault codes are available, as you know, without them it’s the needle in the haystack scenario and a nightmare. They are much easier and quicker to repair than electro-mechanical timers which vastly increases the number of jobs that are economically viable. This greatly enhances your image in the eyes of your customer when you save them XXX£’s and it only costs you £1 for a new relay or a few pence for a triac plus you can charge for repairing the module as well!

Surface mounted componants raise a new challenge to DIY board repair but with the right gear and a good magnifier they are no harder to repair than through hole componant boards. You can spend a grand+ on an sm rework station but a small gas powered iron with a hot air tip does a good job. Add rework flux and some solder paste or fine solder and you are in business. CPC do a small rework kit for £22 +VAT which has some needle point tweezers, just the job for handling those tiny componants.

Andy 🙂

[BobHope]

Re: Do you prefer electronic timers?

I agree with you andy but not many in this game will have a go at repairing a module, they use other companies for that, i have saved many modules from an early grave by employing your said methods, and the electronics are here to stay, as ken says its all down to cost, just wish they would pass that price on to the parts departments of the major manufacures who are ripping everyone off.

Cheers Bob.

[leavemetogetonwithit]

Re: Do you prefer electronic timers?

I’ve done some successful repairs on modules but,with the exception of resistors and triacs which are easy to test with meter/ test lamp,the damage has had to be visible in order for me to find it. The difficulty comes with all these things that look like flattened millipedes (microprocessors I think you call them). Even if you’ve made up a test rig for each of many models, you’ll have a job tracking down the fault in those. Also, by the time you get one type/model sussed out, they’ve changed design completely and your knowledge is out of date and your test rig is buried under a pile of others in the garage.(Moan,moan).

What really bugs me is what appears to me to be over-sophistication in these designs. It’s as though they’re just showing off how high-tech they can be but without any real benefit in terms of getting the washing done.
I advise the many customers who ask, to go for simplicity.

Despite all my dislike of fancy electronics I’ve been wondering if the real cause of apparent unreliability is that machines are just worked harder these days. Many people have become obsessed with cleanliness so a typical four member family reports “almost daily” use of the machine.
So maybe we’re making a false comparison when we hark back to the good old days ❓

[Author]

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