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Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
Totally agree, the tension these belts are under is ridiculous, I always slightly pre-stretch the belts very slightly by putting it under my foot and pulling upwards and this tends to give a tiny bit more give in the belt. Have to say I don’t remember going back to one after doing this
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HDHOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munchers)
madangler1 wrote:If the belt is snapping regularly its either Jamming and look for reasons for that or overloading/ misuse. Rapid bearing use is overloading.
Are there any clues that would enable anyone to determine that the reason for failure is entirely due to overloading?
All too obvious with a washing machine where the load is stuck inside and the door won’t open. But how can you accuse the user of overloading a dryer once the load is removed?
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
Martin wrote:
madangler1 wrote:
If the belt is snapping regularly its either Jamming and look for reasons for that or overloading/ misuse. Rapid bearing use is overloading.Are there any clues that would enable anyone to determine that the reason for failure is entirely due to overloading?
All too obvious with a washing machine where the load is stuck inside and the door won’t open. But how can you accuse the user of overloading a dryer once the load is removed?
Usually quite easy to spot. Customer with 9KG Hoover or Indesit washer and a 6KG drier. 😐
‘Cos nine goes into six with none left over…..remember your maths at school? :clown:Steve.
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
Martin wrote:Are there any clues that would enable anyone to determine that the reason for failure is entirely due to overloading?
Easier than you may think.
I keep saying, part of the job is to be re-christened “Sherlock”. 😉
If you look at the belt you will usually see that it is “burnt” through in one small area, worn through but it’ll look burnt around the edges of the snap. That’s caused by the friction when the belt stays still while the motor pulley keeps on spinning, eventually burning it’s way or, wearing it’s way if you like, through the belt.
The cause is that the drum has been stopped from turning for some reason, in the absence of a physical cause such as a bearing failure, which should be obvious to all but the most incompetent, then logic would dictate that the drum has been prevented from turning as it should. The belt has far more contact with the drum so simple physics and common sense tells you that the drum was stationary as was the belt and that the friction was at the point of least resistance and contact.
Two possible causes that remain if there is no other cause present, either the machine was overloaded or that the load was too heavy. There is no other possibility unless someone can come up with one, which I would doubt.
Any dryer can suffer from this, irrespective of brand or design as can a washing machine when overloaded as well.
The one caveat is that one bad overload can cause a kind of “kink” in the belt so, if it’s overloaded again it comes round to the motor and stick there. You will see it or more hear it in a sort of low thump or sort of clicking sound on each rotation of the drum. After that it’s only a matter of time before the belt fails.
But in my experience of looking at them after the fact, almost all belt failures are caused by this on dryers, very few are not attributable to overloading of some sort. Or, something preventing the drum from turning, effectively locking it in place.
If you think about it a bit it makes perfect sense as the belts are damned strong for the most part, you’d really have to go some to snap one without cutting it or causing damage to it in some way. This pretty much the only way to damage them in situ.
In all my time, I can’t recall ever seeing one that has been evenly worn across the entire belt.
The load weight is a factor Steve, very much so with some but I have seen this where the volume isn’t too great (as well as it being over the volume capacity) but the laundry is too wet and therefore too heavy. The weight rating on any (washer or dryer) is a theoretical maximum that IMO doesn’t really mean all that much in reality. I regard it like MPG figures, nice to imagine it’s possible, impossible to recreate in real world use.
Poorly spun or not spun at all would be my guess or just plain old overloading. There’s seldom any other explanation that even remotely makes sense.
Just try getting the owner to admit though. :rolls:
Thankfully however, physical evidence can’t lie.
K.
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
Thank you for the replies to my rhetorical question by the way. But I can answer that, whilst you can accuse the user of overloading, that is not the reason. As Jim points out it is due entirely to a design fault.
Why would any engineering designer ever contemplate a friction shaft and bearing as the main drive point when the solution would be to use a small ballrace bearing. Or that increasing the size of the belt from 7 rib to 9 rib would solve anything? Design madness!
The Indesit/Hotpoint/Creda dryers are not fit for purpose. The user is not guilty of any misdemeanour other than buying one in the first place.
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
I’d love to see you prove statement of fact you’ve made that Martin, in the absence of evidence, that these dryers are not fit for purpose. Aside that “fit for purpose” is only applicable in the first few months of ownership at best.
Common failure, yes. Other than that you can’t say much with certainty without a heap of data to back it up. Without that evidence it may be your opinion but, that doesn’t make it a fact.
In order to increase load capacities as well as reduce initial purchase cost that compromises have to be made. On many if not most dryers that’s led to, I agree, stupidly high tension belts.
It leads to, if you overload past the capacity that it was designed for then the belt will slip and it will do so on the motor pulley where the force required is lowest.
If you increase the width of the belt then you increase the grip and the level of force required to make it slip. Common sense really.
The resistance in the bearings has a part to play obviously but I very much doubt that as being a sole cause and, if it were, then surely the bearings should be obviously damaged and changed then at the same time the belt is being replaced?
What you would expect to see if that were the case is a rash of bearing failures and much the same sort of complaints about the bearings failing but, you don’t. All you see is reports of belts “snapping”.
BTW, Jim didn’t say there was a design fault, he didn’t use the term at all. Jim said that it was his opinion that the higher belt tension was an issue and that on older dryers with the jockey wheels that the issue didn’t seem to occur.
K.
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
I would beg to differ Ken, I see many bearings worn through and even the cabinet rear cutting through the shaft but the belt is still fine. I have more rear bearings on my van than belts. This can only be down to the tension of the belt and not purely the weight of clothes which I grant you could cause the drum to slow or stop. The belt is far too thin and the tension too high. As I said before these problems were almost unheard of before the jockey pulleys were removed.
RobRe: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
I do think it is a design fault, and you can call it a ‘rash’ or whatever, the simple fact is that on the Hotpoint based dryers there has been a huge increase in rear bearing and shaft failure, you always got belts snapping, far more now on these stretchy belts but you did not get the bearing and shaft wearing completely through and cutting into the back of the cabinet. That has only happened since the removal of the jockey pulleys ergo it is a design fault. The simple fact that it is far worse on Hotpoint based dryers suggests that the rear bearing should as Martin said have been updated or changed to allow for the tremendous load the belt now places on the shaft and bearing.
I also change more belts due to bearing/shaft failure than just simple belt failure and also do far more shaft and bearing changes than belts on these machines. I would guess at a ratio of 3 to 1 bearing/shaft to belt.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
Not saying that the cabinet or bearing failure isn’t a problem. 😉
I’m talking about just the belt failing.
I would think that the jockey pulleys are gone to allow greater space inside the cabinet as well as to cut down on components and therefore the cost. Probably the same reason the cabinet and/or bearings aren’t beefed up.
If it’s too expensive, people won’t buy it.
If it doesn’t have a large enough capacity (true or not) people won’t buy it.
Repeat for all the other boxes to be ticked.
So, they do what they can within the constraints that are set by demand.
I wouldn’t argue that they’re probably not all that good or robust but it is what it is and it sounds to me like that’s a wear and tear issue, they’re just worn out as they’re not designed to last the same as older models that likely were, comparatively, much more expensive in the first place.
K.
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
But it is exactly the same part that was used in ‘older models’ the original bearing was a small, square one that once changed from plastic to bronze never wore out . The removal of the pulleys can only be put down to cost savings. No extra space is gained on these by removing them.
They even tried to ‘beef up’ the rear bearing by changing from the small square bearing to the current teardrop bearing with the result that it now just takes a little longer to wear right through and the slice the shaft in half. :rolls:
Other lower end dryers such as the White Knight do not suffer this from this fault.
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
kwatt wrote:I’d love to see you prove statement of fact you’ve made that Martin, in the absence of evidence, that these dryers are not fit for purpose. Aside that “fit for purpose” is only applicable in the first few months of ownership at best.
I cannot “prove” diddly squat or would wish to bother myself. I’m merely stating as a matter of fact that the design is flawed simply by the omission of a small ball race bearing. ‘We engineers’ know what causes belts to burn out and snap. (But welcomed your earlier elaboration nevertheless). And are fully aware of the overloading and misuse these crappy Hotpoint’s are subjected to. However it doesn’t detract from the obvious conclusion, we all come to in this case, in that the design/evolution of these former Creda made dryers is flawed. Deliberately so I’m sure by applying the ‘built to dump’ manufacturers time frame philosophy.
Jim mentioned White Knight (Crosslee no doubt) and their dryers use a stretch belt that is an elasticated direct drive job. The drum spindle is supported by a ball race bearing and the belt very much thinner. Both bearing and belt endure the same stress and strain as any Hotpoint yet outlast them twofold or more.
Built to a price they may be but I cannot imagine that a small ball race fitted in place of that phosphor bronze/synthetic junket can cost a penny more to produce?
Meanwhile, the only problem here for the poor consumer is that whilst we need them to realise you only get what you pay for. A manufacturer the likes of Indesit have the effrontery in producing such crap year in year out. Compounded by the fact that these design flaws are discussed openly in trade forums yet rarely see the light of day in the public. No doubt their lawyers are on standby toward anyone making even a hint of any libellous statements towards their product.
But then being in the repair game we still need lemmings to buy these third rate products so that feeds us the work. And the clever part is we can and will always blame the end user for the machines failure anyway. So I ain’t planning to rock any boat here. On the contrary, let them continue to producing the crap and if it goes wrong then blame the user every time.
Like John Cleese asked in his brilliant video “….who sold you this then?” 😉
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
Martin you really are one of the few people who makes me question why I bother to try but, I am actually trying to help you guys.
All I was trying to highlight there was that if you’re going to make an accusation be sure you’re right because, if you’re not, you put yourself in the firing line. This is probably not really a problem for you as much as it can be for some, especially when carrying out warranty or extended warranty work as saying the wrong thing could land you in a heap of trouble.
You are correct, it could be considered to be libellous and you could be taken to task for it.
I don’t really want to see anyone end up in that situation when it’s completely and, easily, avoidable.
I would not disagree that, in general, many machines out there and especially so at the lower tiers seem not to be of the same quality as they were in the past and do not have the same level of durability. I don’t think that many people would disagree with that.
At the same time, they are also comparatively much cheaper.
Your old John Cleese video I wouldn’t disagree that some of the basic principals are sound but I don’t think it’s just perhaps as relevant as it was in its day. Keeping in mind that it is from 1975, almost forty years ago then updated (a bit) in 1997 with Hugh Laurie in place of John Cleese, seventeen years ago.
If you like though you can relive the glory days here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z7u3ZuP6nk&feature=kp
With part two here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LvmKLUWky0
Stuff to be learned from them sure, but how much applies in today’s internet age I’m not so sure of.
K.
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
kwatt wrote:All I was trying to highlight there was that if you’re going to make an accusation be sure you’re right because, if you’re not, you put yourself in the firing line.
Ken, the subject matter is this make of dryer. I refer specifically to this make of dryer. I don’t need to make any of my own accusations about its flawed design to anyone as everyone here knows it to be so. I hope you do too?
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
Maybe it would be a good thing going back to the old days, I’m referring to those days that would make a lot here happy, the days when people washed in the metal tub, used wringers.
In those days their dryers never failed, belts never broke, you only had to worry about the rain.
Oh that won’t work, scrape those days, too many issues, arthritis etc etc.
Better go back further, to the caves, when we didn’t wear anything, so no laundry issues, no repairs required, didn’t have customers moaning about stuff.
The really good old days.
Re: HOTPOINT tumble dryers (the belt breaking bearing munche
Good money spinners these machines for us guys just doing cash repairs. However no one has mentioned one of the main differences between the White Knight and the Hotpoint is the size of the door opening, the Hotpoint is much larger and with the early type air seal (crap) there seems to be more friction – the top of the drum always rests on it. The newer foam air seal seems to be an improvement ( how often do we see this these days) but only time will tell.The glass door on the condenser drier also seems to be an improvement on the old square door.
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