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I dont sell many appliances but over the past 12-18 months ive been getting a lot of work from a letting agency. They started asking me if i could supply them with appliances (mainly washers). They were not bothered what they were, just something cheap to keep the tennant and landlord happy. So ive supplied them with a few Amica and Beko washers mainly from BDC. I dont make much money on them in fact it just about covers my time to Ber the origional machine and deliver and install the new one whilst removing the old one. Now to cut a long story short, they’ve called me to say they’ve had a Beko machine go down just before Christmas that i deliverd a couple of months before. They contacted Beko under the warranty and after several cancelled engineer visits (due to snow) wrong parts being brought to call and eventually when it got repaired it broke down a few weeks later. They rang me to say that they are being fobbed off by Beko and the tennant has been without a machine for the best part of 5 months and is threatening to hold back rent. I get on very well with this agency and they get me quite a lot of work and although they are not blaming me for the problems (yet) they are asking if i can help them in this matter. What should i do? Ive said i will put a recon machine in the property for now to keep the tennant happy until they sort it out with Beko. Although i have not said it to them yet, rather than upset them and lose there custom i would supply them a new machine out of my own pocket but why should i? I Know as the seller i have an obligation to them but surely Beko has an obligation to honour its warranty.
Any Advice Please?
Thanks
Subs
Re: How should i deal with this?
Have you tried calling Beko yourself and laying on the “currently recommend you, but my confidence is being tested” etc. etc? I don’t supply Bekos but did it once with a BSH washer dryer that was playing up and BSH arranged it to be swapped with a new one. This will probably get you more brownie points with the agent than a recon too.
Bekos number is 01923 818121.
Otherwise it really depends on the customer. Personally, like you, I’d stump up the cost of a new machine if it was that or lose the customer, because LA jobs are normally very easy, as tenants never try and fix anything themselves. But only you can make the call really :).
Re: How should i deal with this?
The bad news is Subs that you hold full and accountable responsibility for that machine. As the seller you are accountable for up to 6 years in fact. Now being as that the Beko is being a PITA and Beko service even worse, it’s really down to you to sort out your Landlord/Tenant ASAP with a suitable alternative meanwhile.
They could even, in the worst case scenario, play the “not of merchantable quality” card? In which case you would simply have to replace the machine like for like and deal with the faulty one in whatever way you see fit afterwards. Either way the onus falls on you to sort it I’m afraid to tell you.
Trust me on this as I’ve been there, done it, got the T Shirt and many nasty scars to prove it mate! Selling appliances and servicing them is a ruddy nightmare, I gave up that game long ago as the profit was almost non-existent and the aggro even worse. Nowadays I get the landlords to solve their BER m/c’s by going to the sheds, I just fix them when they go wrong….It’s an on-going profit with non of the hastle or come-back I like. Bearing in mind that landlords always buy crap and crap always fails pretty regularly but if you sell it as well then the pain is unbearable and even effects your sleep patterns I used to find! 😉
Re: How should i deal with this?
Martin wrote:The bad news is Subs that you hold full and accountable responsibility for that machine. As the seller you are accountable for up to 6 years in fact.
Not so clear cut.
You are liable for up to six years only if the defect can be PROVED to have been there since point of sale after the goods are over six months old by the customer. Under six months the retailer has to prove that the defect was not there.
The “not of merchantable quality” argument is a red herring. It does not count after the goods have been in use for any length of time, ie, more than a few days… not weeks or months.
The problem for subs is a commercial decision, not a legal one. The question is, is it worth the hassle?
As you’ve provided a loan appliance while the original is repaired I’d say they’ve gotten pretty good service and not a bad deal really.
As for a replacement machine, you’d have to pressure your supplier to replace it I expect unless you have a go at Beko which is unlikely to get a result.
HTH
K.
Re: How should i deal with this?
I would be as helpful and go out of the way to keep the work coming in, if its anything like my area a replacement engineer would step in before you could blink.
Loyality seems to be a quality long forgotten.
Re: How should i deal with this?
I would exchange the machine for the tenant, that way it keeps the rent being paid to the landlord and in turn the letting agency will retain your services should anyone come touting for business.
Get the machine back to your place for Beko to hopefully repair so you can sell it again at a later date at a slightly reduced price due to it now being a used returned appliance.
Or request the engineer to provide you with an engineers report if he will, so you can get BDC to exchange the machine.
Don
Re: How should i deal with this?
have you got any details of the nature of the breakdowns, if the secondary breakdown is due to tenant abuse, then they dont have a right to hold back rent.
there are significantly more tenants who are hell than those who arent for most LAs, and totally pedantic about things who wont accept their actions have caused certain failures. Its the serial tenants who beleive nothing should go wrong and therefore they should be recompensed the minute it does, and depends on how resiliant the LA’s are, and how easy going hte LL’s are. usually the tightest LL’s insist on the highest rents, with the poorest quality tatt appliances and expect them to last, likewise the tenants for these properties tend to be the most demanding and pendantic. We have a good relationship with our LA’s and we have loan machines to go in if theres a reasonable delay in parts – our unwritted agreement is a loan appliance after 5 days since notification. They are aware of it and if thats required there will be a surcharge on the repair bill for it. In their eyes it shuts the tenants up, the landlords dont get threatened with witheld rents and the repairing machine is in our warehouse ready for a service engineer if its under warranty, or ready for the spare part to be fitted as soon as it comes in, it also negates havign to arrange with tenants for access for service engineers 🙂
might be worth swapping hte beko out, and either INSISITING on it going back to BDC (we use the 3 strikes rule of thumb, if its not sorted after that the supplier takes it back or has it dumped in there delivery driveway and we dont move until its received)
Re: How should i deal with this?
“I dont make much money on them in fact it just about covers my time”
You should be making £80 on each machine,
Or get them to order it and you charge for installationRe: How should i deal with this?
As a large retailer of white goods and gone thru this problem many times, my advice is this, exchange the machine, you can either then get Beko to come look at it at your address or what i do, contact the wholesaler who provided you with it rant and rave fill in there uplift form and let them deal with it which works every time.
Many times i,ve had no luck with the manurfacturer direct let the wholesaler deal with it.
Good Luck!
Re: How should i deal with this?
kwatt wrote:The “not of merchantable quality” argument is a red herring. It does not count after the goods have been in use for any length of time, ie, more than a few days… not weeks or months.
Remind me sometime, perhaps in another thread, another time, to discuss the finer points with you on that Ken. But for now I will just reiterate that ‘not of merchantable quailty’ is more far reaching legally than you suggest in your post and by no means a red herring.
kwatt wrote:The problem for subs is a commercial decision, not a legal one. The question is, is it worth the hassle?
As you’ve provided a loan appliance while the original is repaired I’d say they’ve gotten pretty good service and not a bad deal really.
On this we do agree and very much so. Although Subs, has’nt yet provided that loan machine. That would be the easier solution until the Beko is fixed I reckon. Perhaps he could leave the Beko there so they can sort it in situ as it well? Dragging it back to the shop and Beko might turn funny regarding fixing it from there?…in my day f4rting about with new machines, Hotpoint (I was a “Hotpoint Centre” at the time) were less that co-operative fixing m/c’s brought back to my shop….more hastle I didn’t need. :rolls:
I think in fairness we’ve covered most of his options and now anxiously awaiting a happy resolve from subs. 😀
Re: How should i deal with this?
Martin wrote: Dragging it back to the shop and Beko might turn funny regarding fixing it from there?…in my day f4rting about with new machines, Hotpoint (I was a “Hotpoint Centre” at the time) were less that co-operative fixing m/c’s brought back to my shop….more hastle I didn’t need. :rolls:
this would be the same beko that authorised us to repair a w/m still under their warranty even though we arent contracted. why? because the machine is in a mobile road groundworks caravan site (not pikey travellers) and said their engineer wouldnt have a clue where to find them, as the site didnt actually have a postcode, or adress! we told them what parts we needed they got sent and we fitted them f.o.c (we did sell the machine mind)
ive never had problems with any manufacturer doing a rtb repair, except with service force who are well awkward, basically call centre refused to fill out the form unless i gave them the customers details i told them it wasnt relevant but they HAD to have them because the t/d had been delivered. anyway, tell them customer refused it on delivery cos it was noisy so the t/d will be in our shop as customer rarely at home and didnt want to be bothered till we were delivering the replacement.
so service force were told it was on our premises, we get rung day before call out stating engineer would be with us before 12, 12 comes along and no arrival. phone service force, engineer couldnt get a response, missed call bill left in the door, then they claimed it was our fault because we werent at the customers house to let the engineer in. HELLO, you told us you were visiting our shop the day before, why did he go there? anyways, customer rantign and raving on phone about the missed call out bill, and then finishes the conversation with “forget about the replacement im going to >local rival<" so THANKS Zanussi.
Re: How should i deal with this?
kwatt wrote:
Not so clear cut.
You are liable for up to six years only if the defect can be PROVED to have been there since point of sale after the goods are over six months old by the customer. Under six months the retailer has to prove that the defect was not there.
The “not of merchantable quality” argument is a red herring. It does not count after the goods have been in use for any length of time, ie, more than a few days… not weeks or months.
K.
If the drum bearings fail because the seal lets water in after a few years of normal use it’s pretty clear the machine was faulty from the start in that it had an inerrant fault.
If the bearings, motor or timer fail after 2 years and it’s rendered beyond economical repair it’s pretty clear the machine hasn’t lasted a reasonable time.
All factors have to be taken into account such as purchase price and how the machine’s been used, but it’s perfectly possible to claim compensation under sale of goods act up to 6 years after purchase depending on the fault.
It would be debatable how long a cheap Beko “should” last, but if you bought a Miele for example and paid £700 for it and it suffered a major fault after 5 years I’d put my money on winning in the small claims court saying it hadn’t lasted a reasonable time because most people would think it unreasonable to invest £700 in a high quality product and have it break down at 5 years needing (say) £500 of repairs..
According to the sale of goods act the phrase “reasonable time” means what most people would consider reasonable.
Re: How should i deal with this?
It’s not as clear as that Andy.
There are a number of factors that have to be taken into account, not least of which is the one you rightly point out regarding the reasonable expectation when compared within the marketplace.
Use is also a factor as is amount of use.
You also have to consider that, like any other mechanical device or even most consumer electronics, that whilst they may be designed to last X,000 hours or X,000 cycles that faults can and do occur. There is, in effect, no guarantee of durability.
If your car gets to three years old and it needs a new engine or ECU which would likely cost a good proportion of the value of the car they don’t give you a new one. In fact, the chances of even being offered a partial refund unless you were almost killed by it are, at best, remote.
The same consumer legislation applies, it is no different.
Therefore, even a major failure is not covered by the six year rule unless, as I said, you can categorically prove that it was an inherent fault that had been there from new. A seal wear, brushes wearing down, bearings wearing would not give anyone the right to an automatic replacement by any stretch.
The problem with the “last a reasonable” time argument on laundry appliances is great until you’re made look a plonker in court by facts that state the average lifespan is 7 years, THe average price is £500. You paid £200 for the whatever brand so you can “reasonably” expect about 2 years or so and, in any event, that again does not guarantee that the goods will be fault free in that period.
The problem here isn’t the law, it’s brilliant. In fact it’s way ahead of most Western countries, the problem here is that people expect a Rolls Royce for Mini money.
K.
Re: How should i deal with this?
kwatt wrote:It’s not as clear as that Andy..
That’s a fact, and it’s not as clear as your original post implied either. 🙂
You also have to consider that, like any other mechanical device or even most consumer electronics, that whilst they may be designed to last X,000 hours or X,000 cycles that faults can and do occur. There is, in effect, no guarantee of durability..
I agree the SOGA doesn’t cover any breakdown, some of which are acceptable if used heavily, but a washing machine does a tough job and is subject to lots of stresses and strains, so it should be created to deal easily with those strains.
If products are created so that they can’t really cope with normal usage for at least 5 or 6 years it’s not fit for purpose IMO. A brand new product of any description, properly designed and properly built simply should not break down with major faults in its first few years. If anything is properly made how can it fail after 2 or 3 years? You can’t say ah, well customer x flogged it to death because they have 4 kids and 2 adults because people do have 4 kids and 2 adults, some have 2 or 3 kids. That’s what a washer should be designed to deal with. you shouldn’t design washing machines that only cope with washing for a couple, or a couple with just 1 kid.
It wasn’t so bad in the old days, people would just accept it was out of guarantee and have it repaired, what’s different these days is that products are not repairable in many cases and rendered BER within the 6 year period. I don’t think it’s acceptable for even a cheap washing machine to be BER within 6 years without exceptional circumstances.
Products are being created that don’t last past the sale of goods act’s 6 year period which was created when products were more expensive and lasted longer and were properly repairable. These products shouldn’t be economically viable to exist because every time they went BER after 2, 3 or 4 or 5 years customers should claim compensation under the SOGA but they don’t so the status quo continues.
If your car gets to three years old and it needs a new engine or ECU which would likely cost a good proportion of the value of the car they don’t give you a new one. In fact, the chances of even being offered a partial refund unless you were almost killed by it are, at best, remote.
The same consumer legislation applies, it is no different.
The car industry is no different to the washing machine industry in ignoring their SOGA obligations. If the car has been looked after and not done excessive mileage the customer should be able to claim compensation from the seller under the SOGA. They won’t get a new car, just like you wouldn’t get a new washing machine, but they should be entitled to compensation to cover the cost of the repair if a judge agrees it hasn’t lasted a reasonable time.
Therefore, even a major failure is not covered by the six year rule unless, as I said, you can categorically prove that it was an inherent fault that had been there from new. A seal wear, brushes wearing down, bearings wearing would not give anyone the right to an automatic replacement by any stretch.
You seem to be focussing on only one aspect of the act K. When a product fails shortly after purchase and the ability to reject it. The act also says it should last a reasonable time. I would never agree they shouldn’t ever break down within the 6 years, but any breakdown that renders it BER means the product has not lasted a reasonable time to me.
You paid £200 for the whatever brand so you can “reasonably” expect about 2 years or so and, in any event, that again does not guarantee that the goods will be fault free in that period.
Why should customers expect that just because they only paid £200 for a washing machine it should be obvious it’s a bunch of crap that won’t last very long? If they can’t produce a washing machine that lasts a reasonable time for £200 – £300 surely it shouldn’t even exist? The fact it exists and there are plenty in the shops means manufacturers and retailers are endorsing it as a viable purchase for families. If this is not the case they shouldn’t be being sold. If people asserted their rights under the SOGA they would disappear within several years because retailers would stop selling them.
The problem here isn’t the law, it’s brilliant. In fact it’s way ahead of most Western countries, the problem here is that people expect a Rolls Royce for Mini money.
K.
There’s definitely different expectations between a high quality product and a cheap one but most people would say a minimum of 5 years life from a cheap washer is acceptable. if they didn’t no one would buy cheap washers if it was a given that they will only last a few years. The SOGA is supposed to stop crap products being sold.
Re: How should i deal with this?
The 6 year rule is nothing to do with the anticiapted lifespan of a product. It is merely because the courts do not allow claims for breach of contract to be brought more than 6 years after the date of contract.
If a product fails within 6 months of date of purchase, the retailer is obliged to fix it unless he can prove the product was of satisfactory quality when sold. If a product fails more than 6 months after it was sold, the buyer has to prove it was not of satisfactory quality when sold.
So if anything the law only implies a reasonable typical lifespan of 6 months. In practice it is all very subjective and ultimately down to the District Judge to assess any evidence put forward if it goes to the County Court. The evidence would probably need to be supported by an expert report.
So if my 10p BIC pen cracks after 3 months, I probably wouldn’t be entitled to a repair. But if the bearings on my £1200 Miele washing machine wore out after 5 years (and I put my County Court claim in before the 6 years were up), I probably would, since Miele advertise the drum as being designed for a 20 year lifespan.
Interestingly, the same rules apply to second-hand goods (unless defects are drawn to the attention of the buyer) and to all components fitted as part of a repair service.
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