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Re: in-line heater test?
Changing the relay would be a safer option than a simple solder repair TBH.
Re: in-line heater test?
I have a Zanussi zsf4123 with the same problem. Accessedt the circuit board and sure enough the relay joint had burnt out, not only that but I noticed that all the wiring leading up to the controller were embedded in the insulation on the back of the door. Not sure if that was by design or heat!
Anyway resoldered the joint but now the controller apears to have totally given up. Main on off switch lights up but no responce or lights from the controller.
Any suggestions?
Re: in-line heater test?
Usual cause is that the terminal block with the orange and blue wires has been fitted the wrong way round.
Penguin45.
Re: in-line heater test?
absoluty right 😳
Still not getting hot water so I guess replacing the relay would be the next cause of action. The part number on the relay is js1-b-12v-f-h111. Anyone know where I can get one from?
Re: in-line heater test?
As has already been suggested in this thread, you appear to need a 12vol relay with contacts rated at 10 amps,230volts AC…..unfortunately,it appears that a relay of that spec. will not be a direct substitute,necessitating a board-rework or remote mounting to “kludge” the more robust relay into the circuit.
the alternative, (also already mentioned) is to replace with the highest-rated one you can source,with the same physical pin-layout. At best, a short-term repair as the fault is still there.
Personally I don’t think that is safe. the correctly-rated component is the safe option.
Try RS, Farnell or Rapid (google search should come up with them.)All are specialist suppliers of electronic components and may well refuse to supply to private individuals .
Re: in-line heater test?
My previous look at the pcb was, I admit, less thorough that it could have been. 😳
This time I removed all the wires and removed the pcb from the plastic housing and sure enough there is a burnt out terminal
This is right under the NAIS JS1-12V AJS1311 10A 125V~ Relay 😀
Alltogether – “I told you so” ok, ok, must do better………..
Talked to service force, who support AEG and they will only supply the full board at £94 plus they say it will be 10 days before they get one in.:x
My hot water has also packed up! Investigated the PCB after finding this excellent Forum and found that my PCB has the same damage, but slightly worse! There is actually no copper left around the pin in question, so i am unable to solder it to anything. Is it possible to solder in a small jumper wire to link the pin to the end of the adjacent track? (I’m assuming the pin should be linked to the track that is at 2 o’clock to it in the photo as it has nowhere else to go)Thanks for any help and advice!
Martin
PS: It is from a Zanussi DE6855
Re: in-line heater test?
NO
I think, if you look carefully, the track at “2 O’clock” finishes ON THAT SIDE OF THE BOARD
The PAD around the relay-pin is likely to be just that…a pad….the TRACK is probably on the other side of the board.bear in mind that the whole concept of a printed circuit, is CHEAPNESS….it’s magnitudes cheaper to print the “wires” on the board, than to cut/strip/wrap loads of individual wires between components….unfortunately, tracks can’t cross over each other…..hence the double-sided board, where a track can be soldered through the board, to wend it’s way across others before re-emerging or just connecting to a component…..but a pad helps ensure the solder wicks through the board and properly completes the connection.
WARNING!!! i’M NOT NECESSARILY CORRECT! 😆
Re: in-line heater test?
Thanks for the reply.
Why would a dry joint cause a problem then if that leg of the relay is not connected to anything on that side of the board?
It’s hard to tell due to the heat damage where the copper track originally went to. Has anyone got any photos of a non damaged PCB?
Has anyone contacted Zanussi etc regarding it being a dangerous design fault that should be repaired under a product recall, as many people obviously have the same fault?! …or are PCBs burning-out after 2 years considered to be wear and tear :rolls:
Thanks
Martin
Re: in-line heater test?
MartinOz wrote:Why would a dry joint cause a problem then if that leg of the relay is not connected to anything on that side of the board?
Think about it – tracks on both sides of the board….
MartinOz wrote:It’s hard to tell due to the heat damage where the copper track originally went to. Has anyone got any photos of a non damaged PCB?
If you unsolder the relay, it’s pretty obvious.
MartinOz wrote:Has anyone contacted Zanussi etc regarding it being a dangerous design fault that should be repaired under a product recall, as many people obviously have the same fault?! …or are PCBs burning-out after 2 years considered to be wear and tear :rolls:
Never seen one have a dangerous fault. Solder melts, board scorches a little, machine stops heating. As a repairer, it’s a problem I just deal with several times a week. People are usually just pleased the problem is resolved.
Penguin45.
Re: in-line heater test?
Penguin45 wrote:
MartinOz wrote:
Why would a dry joint cause a problem then if that leg of the relay is not connected to anything on that side of the board?Think about it – tracks on both sides of the board….
Thanks for the explanation. Not meaning to sound confrontational, but just trying to understand… Does that mean that the leg of the relay was originaly soldered on both sides of the board and capilliary action joins the two? I assume both joints must have melted to stop it working!
MartinOz wrote:It’s hard to tell due to the heat damage where the copper track originally went to. Has anyone got any photos of a non damaged PCB?
If you unsolder the relay, it’s pretty obvious.
I might give that a try… are the relays fairly robust in terms of heat damage from a soldering iron? Any suggestions on how best to repair it considering there is no copper track left on the underside? (£100 is a lot to pay for a new PCB if it can be repaired.)
MartinOz wrote:Has anyone contacted Zanussi etc regarding it being a dangerous design fault that should be repaired under a product recall, as many people obviously have the same fault?! …or are PCBs burning-out after 2 years considered to be wear and tear :rolls:
Never seen one have a dangerous fault. Solder melts, board scorches a little, machine stops heating. As a repairer, it’s a problem I just deal with several times a week. People are usually just pleased the problem is resolved.
Mine looks like it has actually been on fire as the white plastic cover is scorched and carbonised 8O… lots of black powder over the whole board, but it wiped off easily. I can understand moving parts wearing out after a few years, but circuit boards should last for 10-15 years surely! Its probably only been through 100 wash cycles 😥 I expect I’ll be on here asking for ‘recommended’ models in a few weeks… Bosch ones are generally regarded as being reliable for a reasonable price…
Thank you for sharing your expertise 🙂
Martin
Penguin45.
Re: in-line heater test?
OK, Martin, I’ll bite! 😀
The people who run this board, are highly restricted ,by EC liability rules, the safety police and all the other vested-interest jobsworths…….this means that they have to be very careful with what info. they give you.
OTOH, I am just another keyboard-jockey in cyberspace. You attach as much importance to my output, as your intelligence (or lack thereof,) allows.
I have made several reasonably helpful posts here,over a period of time,the odd one has been removed by the Mod’s if I’ve gone too far…..so, saying all that………
Having been interested in Electronics from about the time when the first commercial transistor radios appeared, I’ve picked up a fair smattering of background knowledge.
The black dust on the board, is the product of ionisation….also seen in TV’s Microwaves, radios etc. It’s the muck floating in the air which is precipitated by the electro-magnetic activity within your machine’s circuitry
Your assumption about the pads/tracks is correct….through-hole continuity is achieved by plating/pins/wires/capilliary-soldering.
(nowadays, it’s not possible to lay-out a board without any tracks crossing, a “simple ” board will have the odd “jumper” of wire, to cross and join. then we have double-sided boards (like yours!) add then multi-layer boardswhich, needless to say , are extremely complex but pack a massive amount of circuitry into a very small space.
To understand the soldering, you should realise that it’s impractical to prepare each individual component, poke it’s tails through the right holes, trim to length,solder them ….repeat until board is fully populated…..NO! machine-placed, chemically -cleaned then “dipped” to a bath of molten solder. SO, YOUR RELAY WAS PROBABLY MACHINE-SOLDERED FROM THE “UNDERSIDE ” OF THE BOARD solder “wicks” up the pin and onto the connecting track on the other side of the board.
Hole and pin-sizes,fit and various other parameters are tightly controlled to ensure the results are consistent and repeatable ,in a commercial production environment,at economic cost.
Given the above info. you “could” argue the relay is under-specced. you “could” argue that a board re-design to accept a different relay, would result in a completely new board(the relay-driver circuit would likely need “beefing -up”
new components to source, machines to reset, jigs to be made, new boards to be printed….PLUS you have to ensure backward-compatibility,for all machines already sold,OR keep making the old one as well, OR hold a stock to last until it’s obsolete.
The fact is, it works, gives a reasonable working life and is cost-effective, GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF CASH THAT YOU,THE BUYER,IS WILLING TO PAY.
If you buy an ISE 10…It’s GUARANTEED 10 years (IIRC)…but it costs at least 3 times more than your Zanussi….IMHO, the ISE is a bargain, but if you’ve only about £300 to spare, you have to buy something that has cost-saving compromises built-in.
As previously posted on this thread, you “can” source and substitute a bigger relay,but it will NOT drop straight into the board…therefore you will have to extend wires from the board pinouts and mount the substitute remotely.
You are wanting to become an electronics engineer in five minutes…the above is an attempt to “open the door” and show you WHY that’s not possible.
If you lack the knowledge ,and are too lazy/unwilling/out of your depth, in acquiring it…pay a professional his due reward to do it for you.
A good small independent TV/Radio/electronics REPAIRER will be able to do it…be prepared to pay about £30….the relay would need to be researched, ordered,posted to him…all his time has to be paid……….here, it’s given freely by the good guys
😆
Re: in-line heater test?
Steve, thanks for taking the time to explain a few things to me 🙂
I am a chartered engineer by profession and fully understand and appreciate what you are saying…
As a mechanical engineer I am naturaly interested in how things work and enjoy fixing things… I am also keen not to see things wasted from a recycling and energy point of view and chucking away a relatively shiny new dishwasher, just because one tiny electrical component has been under-rated, goes against the grain!
I know you are not advocating that, but many people will just buy a new one and the manufacturers can get away with churning out poor machines.
Anyway, I will investigate the relay further and if that gives me no further clues I will take it to a local repairer as you suggested.
Thanks again for the advice! 🙂
Martin
Re: in-line heater test?
I am a chartered engineer by profession and fully understand and appreciate what you are saying…
Martin! assuming you are a MICE…I’m astounded that you have not, at that level of study and qualification, had the basic education as to circuit-board design and construction!
I agree wholeheartedly with what you’re saying(which is why I spend time trying to divert stuff from landfill, via this site!)
If you do a bit of research, you’ll be able to source a relay,and assuming you’re NOT just an Academic who doesn’t have any real-life skills….you should be able to do a repair of this nature…..it’s the sort of thing the average 14-year-old keen electronics hobbyist should be able to do in his sleep. 😆
Back in the day, I made do with a tin of “Fluxite” and solid solder and an iron heated on the gas-stove 😆
Re: in-line heater test?
MIMechE…
Yeah, I did all the basics at technical college and Uni (building circuits on bread boards, wiring up ring mains etc), but that was 18 years ago!
Having not studied it since, I think I can be forgiven for asking for some advice on reparing a PCB before diving in and risking damaging the rest of the board! 😉 Especially when some of the guys on here say they sort out the same problem week in week out!
If I had found this site before completely stripping down the dishwasher only to find there was nothing wrong with the heating element (like there was on my washer/dryer!), then I could have saved myself a further few hours :rolls: … (was quite interesting working out how it all works though! 😆 )
I’ll see what un-soldering the relay brings!
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