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As some of you may already know from my other thread I’ve had trouble with my old washer so am now in the market for a new one.
I’m looking at the ISE2 as it’s a similar spec to the AEG that I had. I like nice and simple but more important is reliablility. There’s only two of us in the household and no more than 1-2 loads washed every week. Old machine had a 5kg drum and that was fine.
Budget is not really a problem but I’m not looking to spend more than I have to.
Whilst the ISE philosophy is great I actually want a quality, reliable washer. If the machine goes wrong OOW, by the time you factor in call out charges labour and parts, a new machine with warranty always makes economic sense.
Is this machine only cut out to last 2 years or can you get 3-5 years out of it ? Last one served me approx 12 years.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
I think we may have already had a chat about this. 😉
As we discussed, if you don’t want the chance of repairs go for the ISE10.
As you go down the range potentially more chance of things going wrong more frequently.The thing is you never know.
I believe you told me you spent £450 on your AEG 12 years ago. So £799 on the ISE10 is great value and will be money well spent. (You will have to wait till November if you want one as the have been selling like hot cakes).
Tim.
(You’ve got my number)
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
Hi, yes it’s me ! 😀
I’ll admit I am actually intrigued by the ISE10. But a washing machine at £800 and over in today’s market is a little too rich for me.
10 years ago you had three levels of washing machines, budget, mid and top fancy label stuff. You also had manufacturers that catered for those bands so you knew where you sat with them. A mid level buy was actually buying you into a very good machine.
Now, I’ve been to Comet and Currys and to be frank there are 100’s of machines there and after half an hour in each store, I headed out of there and straight here. There is so much cloned rubbish out there on the shop floor today you don’t know what you are buying, even from the same manufacturer. Maybe I’m an old fashioned buyer who wants to know what they’re buying, but nowadays the washer market is basically all a con.
However, having a read about the ISE’s I do like the philosophy that they are built like older ‘more reliable’ machines. I believe in ‘the simpler it is the less likely it is to go wrong’ idealogy.
Whilst I like the ISE10, funds won’t allow for that much. I’ve resigned myself to the fact that todays market simply churns out machines designed to last 2-3 years. So either I go cheap or go top end, the middle is no longer the ground it used to be. If the ISE2 can do 3-5 years then I will likely consider going that route.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
With the useage described the ISE2 should be quite happy for a few years.
But Tim has a very valid point, £799 often causes a sharp intake of breath and much tutting about the cost. But, when people actually stop and think about it it’s really not expensive.
Think about it, a decent vacuum cleaner and, even a Dyson, is about £200 then consider what you’re asking the washing machine to be able to do in contrast. £800 doesn’t seem so bad really.
Then consider, it’s £80 a year to do all your washing or less than £2 a week and that’s if you throw it out on its tenth birthday. Lasting 20 years it’s less than £1 a week! I think you’d struggle to match that from anything else.
An ISE10 is actually pretty cheap and damned good value for money when you consider that it is built to last so long.
This is going to sound a bit nuts from the guy that specified the 2 and 5 as well as the 10 but, the 2’s a nice little machine in its price range and certainly by no means any worse that anything else in that bracket (probably better) but if you can stretch to the 10 over either the 2 or the 5 I’d advise you go for it every time without a second’s hesitation as it’s just superb.
That said the 2 is designed to be easy and really cheap to put right if it does break but it’s actually surprised us in being as reliable as it has, they have proved to be surprisingly robust little things.
K.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
Given the ISE ethos and marketing philosophy, i’d have thought this is a no-brainer.
you have already established that the glossy sheds with their glossy (and dumb) slick commission-led sales -staff, sell huge volumes of overpriced,high-margin crap to gullible punters.
ISE are basic, robust, no-frills products. made to be readily repairable.
OK, you might buy a “2” and in three years time,the motor “could” pop..big deal! but it’s more likely you’ll get 4or 5 years with little more than a belt and motor-brushes.
It’ll still be a reasonably-priced fix…and you’ll be able to get it mended economically, for years, by a local repairer without being held to ransom for parts or tech. information.
alternative is throwing away a crap machine every 18-24 months.and DON’T be fooled by their “guarantees” IIRC, Electrolux is a fixed £90, but if it’s uneconomical (their decision) you’ll just get an allowance against another pile of crap. all the mass-market warehouse stuff is similar in that respect.
I’d guess that the cheaper ISE is the same sort of quality that Zanussi was 10 or 15 years ago.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
In actual fact £799 is an awful lot of today’s money on a washing machine. The argument of what you are getting for it does not really wash.
If you look at the price of plasma TV’s they were extortionate 3 years ago, the prices have plummeted, the spec has gone through the roof and the reliability has gone up. It applies to virtually every other product out there from cars to pocket radios. The customer has won as production has gone up and costs have come down.
So now we come to washing machines, which are by and large quite simplistic mechanical creatures. You have a drum, a motor, a pump and a PCB module.
As you produce more sure costs come down but your spec also improves. The manufacturer knows exactly what to improve, where it will go wrong and how long it is expected to last. They source their components accordingly. There is every reason to expect prices to come down and quality to go up. Not so, the washer market I’m afraid to say is a big con. The machines are designed to break down after a given time and the costs of repair always make it economically viable to always buy new. It’s been an industry for the last 10 years simply as result of making ‘too good’ machines 10 years prior.
ISE’s philosophy is intriguing. They decided to go back to making machines the old fashioned way ? What exactly does that say, they don’t like the way machines are made today or the philosophy of why a washing machine is made the way it is today ?
The way I see it
ISE10, made by ASKO sells for £799 with 10 year guarantee. The machine probably costs far less to make then it ever did but you now have to plump a whole heap to AXA to insure your machine for 10 years.
ISE5, made in Turkey £449 with 5 year guarantee ? Probably sourced out a Bosch/Siemens factory and badged as a ISE machine made to a specified spec. Another chunk to AXA for the scheme.
ISE2, not sure but would like to know where it’s made. Probably by another factory in another country and sourced by ISE to produce a machine to a spec with a 2 year warranty. Smaller chunk to AXA this time.
So you see ISE are no different to all the other brands having machines built to a spec out of the same factories ! They do however give you a warranty and peace of mind that way.
OOW an ISE is just as uneconomical to repair as the next one. Call out charge and labour usually outstrip the cost of the parts by a fair margin. It is however a nice notion to sell the customer the idea that it will be ‘cheaper’ to repair but probably never cheap enough to warrant keeping.
So in my mind the whole washer market is a con, it’s a product that they know you need and will have to buy no matter what. It’s a monopoly by 4 or 5 factories that make machines to spec for whoever cares to walk through the door with a Brand name to stick on the box.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
If Ekkostar read and understood the ISE website, he should have noticed that the ISE policy is to supply spares after the warranty period without a mark-up on the price. The 2 machine is no match for the 10 in overall quality, but it is economically repairable. If, after the warranty period, you can bring in a major repair, say the motor or pcb, for under a quarter of the prurchase cost of the appliance, a user will be far more inclined to have the appliance repaired than simply adding to the landfill problem.
It is a unique aspect of the ISE project. Stop and consider that any of the major manufacturers has infinitely greater buying power than ISE (We’re not even a drop in the ocean, if you consider the 4,000,000 machines sold in the UK each year), yet their budget machines still have £100 computers, £90 motors, £130 sealed tub units that can’t be serviced, top secret service information that we have to fight, collude, steal and beg to actually get our hands on. None of this actually applies to the ISE machines. Want to know something? Ask. After the warranty period, if you want to fix it yourself – ask. If you’re using your local agent, you’re paying for his time, so no point in arguing about parts prices – we’ll be just passing them on.
There is a more serious side to this. In the fullness of time, the ISE project will serve as a model of how economical service could be provided to the public. The Indesit Company will currently repair their own machines, under 5 years old, after warranty, for £100 all in. So that’s a one year warranty (The ISE2 has 2 years) on a washer with decidedly dodgy electronics, shaky suspension and a sealed tub. There is no way that they will do this at a loss (the bean counters will never allow it), so how is is it possible? I would suggest it’s because the cost of parts is tiny. Look on the net – any part is a rip-off. Even we repairers, with the bit of discount we get, are getting ripped off. It is something that makes me very angry.
Anyway, the ISE2 machine. It doesn’t pretend to be anything other than it is – decent budget washer. Turn the knob, press the button, it’ll wash your clothes – rather well actually. It’s not going to run for 20 years, but it’s a sensible budget choice.
I sell loads of them and have had few problems to date.
Penguin45.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
The point is if you strip out the 10year AXA warranty how much would the ISE10 be ? There’d be uproar in the market if they started selling a machine that other manufacturers know can last 10-15 year for £400.
The machine is the machine. In actual fact it probably costs far less to make now than it would have done 15 years ago.
The same applies to all machines as you go down the scale. They are cheaper to make now than they have ever been. But and here’s the big but, the manufacturers do not want the mass of machines to be reliable. It puts the whole industry out of business.
When I bought my AEG it said ‘Made in Germany’ it was and is probably the reason why it lasted so long. They knew how to build a machine and build it right. 10 years later they would know how to build it even better.
However 10 years later and manufacturers try to convince us that motors have now become more unreliable, pumps are more prone to failure, a drum is now more dodgy than it’s ever been and a pcb is an incredibly complex bit of kit to put right when everything in mass produced elctronics is becoming two a penny. I’ll leave that for the more gullible….everything else has gone the other way.
They more likely realised, oh oh we’re making far too good machines and we won’t be seeing these customers again until at least 7-10 years. Bad business model let’s change it. So, the reaction to that has been to help keep the industry in business, make it cheaper quality so that it breaks down more often.
If ASKO can design a machine to last for 20 years, then all the other manufacturers gain the same experience over time with their own machines. It’s called progression and technology.
It’s all a con to get the same amount of money out of the customer. They all know exactly what they are doing.
ISE don’t charge mark up on the parts. The engineer still charges call out and he’ll still charge for his labour. So, it’s a nice sentiment but the end result will still have you thinking about a new machine. If an ISE2 needed a new motor after 2 years, the call out would be £100 by then, the labour probably £50-75 and the motor £80…..the machine only costs £270 brand new !
Don’t get me wrong I like ISE and it’s the brand I’m being forced to buy. What I am being told is to actually buy an ‘ASKO’ machine dressed up as something else. So, you see ISE are no different to the rest….it’s a nice philosophy but it’s flawed.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
Toss us about £20 million and we’ll build a factory and do it our way…..
Right now, you’re looking at about the best compromise there is. Decent product, made to our specification with good warranty and local, personal, highly trained back-up. All agents carry van stock and problems are normally resolved on a first visit.
If that isn’t good enough, I’m sorry, you’re on your own. Might be worth visiting Comet – they do their own warranty guarantees. I’m sure, with a bit of negotiation, you could get them to discount that and sell it cheaper. I’d particularly recommend your attention to the Haier range of products, which, without the guarantee, could realistically be bought for whatever notes you happen to have in your back pocket.
Penguin45.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
What I am being told is to actually buy an ‘ASKO’ machine dressed up as something else.
WRONG, you’re being told that the independent repairers got pee’d off with the throwaway tie-in model and decided to do something about it.
You seem like a sensible fellow, I fancy i fall into the same category, (though many would disagree 😆 )
they’re not doing it for nothing! If, as you suggested, the price of ISE 2 repairs was excessive, that would kill the project-Mrs. housewife would just buy the shiny new warehouse bauble with the twinkly lights.
these guys had the balls to form a cooperative to source, specify and finance a range of custom-specified machines.
They all have a vested interest in happy customers I’d guess that less than 10{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} market penetration would give them a good living,but that can only come if they deliver on their promise.That’s why the AXA crap is an evil necessity (customer confidence)
IF the machines were not up to snuff, -how much of a premium do you think AXA would charge?…..they would hope to trouser 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the take
with a mass-produced, down to a price-point,labour-intensive product, there WILL be failures,BUT you can bet your bottom dollar that all parties in the supply -chain are pretty damned sure the warranty claims will be minimal!
Agreed, they’re old tech. nowadays, but they’re also labour-intensive to build, heavy and awkward to cart around and are more akin to building a car than your example of a plasma TV,which has a far smaller sub-assembly count and is suited to automated procedures.
When I was a kid, a single-tub machine with a wringer! was about 2 months wages…..now tell me that the ISE 10,with a 10 year insured, underwritten ,MINIMUM service life, is not good value!Asko pulled out of the UK market , some years ago, that’s why they are happy to sell to ISE. If you think this is such a lucrative business, i’d do a bit of research!….NO washer-manufacturer is making any record profits….in fact, they’re swallowing each other or going bust or moving production to cheaper-labour countries. another reason why we are losing manufacturing
Health ‘n’ safety, employment legislation, statutory obligations , rates,taxes etc. mean that we’re hopelessly outbid on anything except very small batch -production.
boxes of woodscrews from China can be warehoused in the UK , cheaper than the raw steel can be bought locally!
sorry, your argument is full of holes…….i posted you a reply on your AEG thread!- get it repaired and it’ll probably last another 10 years1
Oh, and how come it’s OK to spend £10,000 or so on a car and then around £100 every 6 months to service it, yet you want 5 years out of a £300 washer without so much as a wipe with an oily rag!Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
No, I think my points are quite sound and quite valid.
ISE don’t make the machine, they simply specify it from a manufacturer. Just like all the others do right now. Nothing wrong with that by me as long as the product is good and reliable. I’m trying to work out what is right for me in today’s minefield of a market place that’s all.
ISE10 = ASKO machine. I like it but it’s a bit dear, that’s all.
I realise the ISE2 is not built as well, just wanted to know if it’s a decent enough machine to see out 3-5 years. In my mind an appliance like a washing machine of today should at least see out that time frame in trouble free fashion.
It is however probably no different to going out and buying a Bosch machine and insuring it for 5 years. An insurance company will pretty much insure anything at the right price, even a Beko or Haier. AXA are not exclusive in that regard. Point is it’s not the warrantythat makes the machine what it is. The machine is the machine. Once it leaves ASKO it’s yours, your engineer and AXA’s problem after that.
Both local engineers have turned round and said go for an ISE10 although Tim Downing is the one listed as the official ISE representative on the website for my area. He was by far the better in his explanation compared to the other guy and quite probably the guy I will go with. I thought he was quite sensible to talk to.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
ekkostar wrote;
the call out would be £100 by then, the labour probably £50-75
Just for your interest, my call-out is only payable if you decide not to repair the machine. At the moment it stands at £18 +VAT. If you go with the repair my normal labour rate at the moment is £38 to £42 + VAT. (This isn’t per hour!!! I would charge more if the Job extends over 1 and a 1/2 hours).
Tim Downing is the one listed as the official ISE representative on the website for my area. He was by far the better in his explanation compared to the other guy and quite probably the guy I will go with. I thought he was quite sensible to talk to.
I’ll take that as a compliment. 😳
Tim.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
Hi eckostar,
I can understand why you think what you do as you are comparing apples and oranges, not apples and apples.
Consumer electronics are primarily electronic devices with few, if any in some cases, mechanical parts in them beyond the odd little drive motor in the likes of a DVD player. The stress that these components are under is low from a mechanical standpoint.
For major domestic appliances, especially washing machines, the devices are primarily mechanical.
For this reason electronic based devices fail less, there’s less moving parts so less mechanical stresses and therefore they don’t break so much. However, just like appliances, they do suffer the same loss of performance as you reduce the cost by using ever cheaper components.
You can reduce costs by automation and this is one of the first things that happened mostly through the 70’s and mostly by the Italians and Germans who automated the productions lines. This brought many appliances within the financial reach of normal people.
Since then we have seen a constant erosion of quality in order to reduce retail prices some of the effects of which we see today are detailed in The Great Washing Machine Swindle
But, the simple fact of the matter that cannot be dismissed is this, you cannot build a mechanical device to the same quality and standard for the same price today as you did twenty years ago, or even ten. Sure you can shave a little here and there with production savings or a few cheaper electronic components but you simply cannot buy steel and the other raw materials for any less now, which is what makes up most appliances.
Add to that the cost of transporting huge big boxes. You can get about 122-210 washing machines on one container, you can get over 300 plasma panels in the same space and both cost the same to ship. It doesn’t take a genius to work out that the washers cost double in shipping and that’s just from factory to port of destination. Now add that up through the whole logistics chain.
That’s just a couple of examples of the differences which show that comparing washing machines against consumer electronics is, to a large extent flawed although if you like I can provide many more reasons why you should try to avoid this comparison.
In the end though it’s up to you to decide whether you can live with whatever compromise you choose as, it’s all a compromise. You either accept that good build and performance costs money or, you decide that you’d rather save the money and accept the reduced build quality and performance.
K.
Re: Is the ISE 2 any good ?
I think I’ve already said that washing machines are basically simplistic mechanical things. They always will be and the constituents of a washing machine are by and large the same as they always were. Motor, pump, drum and module.
It’s not difficult for manufacturers to find out over time what goes wrong with those major parts and where. It’s then not difficult to improve on those faults. In fact they know all of this already.
I’m also willing to accept the compromise on offer nowadays as long as I know what the product is that I am buying. That is surprisingly quite a challenge…..
Miele/ASKO have stayed on one path. The others have gone down another. Each of them then prices their product accordingly to monopolise segments of the market.
The point I’m making is every other manufactured product has progressed, either by improving production techniques, quality, spec and features. It doesn’t make a difference if 15years ago the production line was employees/people fitting the parts and today there are robots doing it. It’s not the fitting, it’s the component itself.
Washing machines manufacturers in the main have chosen to regress in order to sustain the industry. It is apples with apples, unfortunately they’re the ones trying to throw oranges and pears in. It’s quite obvious that they realised that they were building far too good machines 10 years ago that would end up shooting themselves in the foot.
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