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Bet you looked at this as you thought, “what the hell…” 😆
I was perplexed some months ago about the whole thing we have of replacing a drum spider along with bearings as, more often than not, it’s not required. Most engineers (myself included in the past) have ordered up the spider as a belt and braces manoeuvre or, to attempt to get the machine written off if it was a pig of a job.
I got a bit stressed about it, especially when Robert was ordering drums up at silly money from some people.
So, in an effort to curb this needless waste I sourced what is known as Naylon hand pads of a particular abrasive quality in conjunction with some dudes that know that stuff well. The result is a pad that will clean the surface of the brass collar, removing any detritus from it but it isn’t abrasive enough to damage the soft brass.
We’ve tested it in the field here and, it works.
After about 6-8 months we’ve not had one that’s been done back. We’ve been testing these since December 2008 and with live repairs since late January 2009.
In other words, unless the drum shaft is absolutely totalled and the bearings totally collapsed, you can repair the collar by cleaning it up and saving the need to replace a full drum.
The full pad is HERE in the store and, they’re cheap as chips.
With any sets of bearings that we send from this point on you should receive one half pad, which is enough to do two sets of bearings, one set, one side, one half. So for £1 odds you get four repairs done.
I’m telling you now as it’s now tested and I know it works plus, it may well save more than a few machines from the tip as well as everyone a small fortune.
K.
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
I always use a good grade sheet of wet & dry wrapped around the spider shafts on Hotpoint WMA spiders then lift the drum and spin it round to clean the shaft.
Sadly the CI555WH that I have needing a spider has the inner core of the main bearing siezed onto the shaft and the brass collar is badly chewed. 😥
I have not had much success in recovering the shafts on WMA spiders so this has to be worth a go.
(Might even try it on the next ISE 2 SS1242CA2, I have to do seeing as I am the only one replacing these at the mo.)
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
I always do the same as Jim.
I’m sure the result is the same.
I’m suprised that you spent so much time looking into this as its the condition of the shaft rather than the collar thats decides the route of repair.
In the tests you’ve undertaken have you got any machines out there where you didn’t clean the collar? I’m sure these would be doing just as well.
6 to 8 months, I believe, is not long enough to prove its working. Once you have gone past how long the original bearings lasted then theres your proof.
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
Not really Tim, the shaft is just a lump of steel, so long as it’s not trashed it’s usually okay IME. I worry about water getting back into the bearings more than that.
But this was part of a wider exercise with bearings were you’ll notice, if you get a set of ISE replacement ones, that they are the uprated ones that are water shielded. They cost more but fail less as there’s two barriers against water ingress.
There is also bearing grease available, dunno if anyone uses it, but that also helps prevent water ingress to the bearings.
We haven’t put any without cleaning the shaft, using grease and the shielded bearings as, frankly, that wasn’t the point to prove that it didn’t work. The point was to prove that it did and that there was no recall. Normally if that collar tears up the seal I’d expect a recall within a few months, not years. Also, the point wasn’t to make the bearing last as long as the originals, the plan was to make them last longer if possible but, without years of testing, by which time the machines would likely be obsolete, there’s not way to prove that. Sorry Tim I don’t understand where you’re coming from there, do you think there’s something wrong with trying to find a better way of doing things?
Talking to a few guys that know a hell of a lot more than I do about bearings they were absolutely gobsmacked at the way that some of them are put in, even from factory on some. 😉
Basically what they said was that, the shaft shouldn’t cause too much of an issue if the replacement bearings were fitted with a decent quality seal, greased and that water shielded bearing were used.
What was interesting in the course of that conversation was that, the only reason that they could think of for the manufacturers not using water shielded bearings was to save money. Where have we heard that before?
K.
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
do you think there’s something wrong with trying to find a better way of doing things?
No of course not. But you, reading your last post, have thrown in a few variables. So you won’t know if the Naylon experience has helped or not??
I can’t believe that experts would ever suggest to re-use an old shaft.
(It seems a shame to go to all that bother and not change the shaft in the process.)
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
The whole thing was about the problem of premature bearing failure and how to prevent it or prevent a repeat of it.
What I couldn’t get my head round, nor could the bearing boffins, is why we replace the drum shaft when say, for example, the car trade don’t replace a drive shaft when they change a boot gator or whatever example it was they used. In short the answer from them was that there should be no need to do so unless the bearing/s totally collapse and the brass collar is damaged, the brass chipped, pitted or scored where it meets the seal. The failure of the bearings is caused by water ingress, nothing more. The point is to stop the water from getting to them through the water (oil) seal and, even if it does, protect them as much as possible if water does get past the seal.
The problem that they had to get their heads around was that the oil seals used (that’s what mostly they all actually are and not designed for the purpose, but off the shelf car parts etc.) are the only defence against water ingress. They were also a bit astonished when they found out there was no way for water to get back out the bearing housing, but that’s another tale.
In short, it’s cost engineered in large part.
The experts see no reason why the old shaft cannot be re-used if it hasn’t suffered damage as per above. There’s just no need for it. But, that said, the way we’re often told to do things (or have been in the dim and distant past) is by people that want to sell additional bits, they have a vested interest in making us use and stock more parts, not less.
I take the point on the WMA stuff but, that’s a Hotpoint cock up with design.
What I see happening is exactly what you suggest, why not do it when you’re there anyway as that’s the way we’ve always done it and have been told to do it. And, that’s fine if the cost is negligible but, for most drums it isn’t a negligible cost by any stretch, usually its life or death for the job. Fine when it’s a £10 Hotpoint drum spider, not so good when it’s attached to a £100 Electrolux drum!
Anyway, from what I’ve learned, usually there’s little call to change the drum shaft but it’s often been done anyway just because you’re there, not because it’s actually needed.
K.
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
Personally I am a very reluctant spider and shaft changer. The vast majority of the ones I do are Hotpoint 9500/WM series and the WMA ones.
I rarely change the 95/WM ones for shaft or brass collar wear, almost always because the spider has corroded, can do a couple of those every week.
I do make a close inspection of the brass collar if the bearings have completely collapsed on 95/WM machines, otherwise it goes back in.With WMA machines I would say that I would change bearings or drum rear without a new drum spider/shaft at least 75{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the time.
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
I think it is safe to say that the Naylon Hand Pads would make very little difference to Mrs Mc Namara’s ISE/BEKO shaft. 😉
I was surpised to receive a complete drum & spider. Is the spider/shaft not available as a separate part, the inner drum must make up 75{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the cost of this unit, very wasteful.
However I may need the old drum, when I set it to spin I noticed considerable distortion on the front of the inner drum. 😥
Jim.
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
Full drum only Jim, like most these days. 🙁
Hence, trying to save the old spider on a lot of them as it’s a pain.
K.
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
Thats bloody daft, if it was riveted on I could understand it, but this one has three sturdy bolts. 😥
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
Tell me about it and, it’s not the only one I’ve come across like that.
It seems that a lot of the manufacture of these things is contracted out (by a lot of manufacturers) who are delivered the complete drum and, that’s it. Take it or leave it is your choice.
Same with a lot of motors and, this is the reason why some don’t show the brushes as a spare part.
Welcome to our “green” world. 😉
K.
Re: Naylon Hand Pads
The problem of bearing failure is not the bearings themselves even if they have the protective water shielding, all this does is delays the inevitable for a few months. Its the water seals these need to be designed better.
As many of you will remember the old enamelled zanussi tub with cast iron spider, the shaft collar would protrude virtually outside of the drum through a small hole so less likely the seal would fail even with high water levels bearings would last for years without changing.
The same bearings,seals and shaft is used in many of the new zanussi plastic tubs, is it the drum design or just the quality of parts that they dont seem to last as long as they did in the metal drums?
Why is it they design with tubs with no drainage hole in the bearing hub to drain water out when the seals fail?
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