Neff dishwasher is so old, no on-line parts supplier can even identify it!

[iadom]

2Tricky wrote:

Update:
Iadom, I’d love a manual if you might have one. Mine’s turned to coal!

Unfortunately the only ones I can find are for the later Hotpoint models which were actually Bosch machines made by Hotpoint under license. I gave away all of my hard copy manuals when I retired 3 years ago, still have lots on my hard drive but not that one. 🙁

[2Tricky]

iadom wrote:The other valve or any alternative would be impossible to fit in.

BSH,basically Bosch, Neff, Siemens. I worked for Hotpoint from May 1969 until 1980 when I left to go self employed. These Bosch/Neff dishwashers where made for Hotpoint in the very early 70’s. Models 840, 850, 860 & 870.

Should be BSH not the department store BHS, oops.

BSH Hausgeräte GmbH is the full name of the German parent company.

I guess that if I climb out of the box, I’ll be able to make a bracket and extend pipes to suit whatever I settle on. Incidentally, my valve is mains 240V.

[iadom]

2Tricky wrote:

Incidentally, my valve is mains 240V.

The whole machine is almost certainly so, electronic controls not common in those days.
If it has a rotary control timer or a bank of large square push buttons and no digital display it is entirely mains voltage.

[2Tricky]

iadom wrote:
The whole machine is almost certainly so, electronic controls not common in those days.
If it has a rotary control timer or a bank of large square push buttons and no digital display it is entirely mains voltage.

Makes sense iadom…

I’ve got better access to the valve now and the overflow pipe appears empty when the machine has completed, and so I think that’s not the problem. But for completeness, I wonder whether you would mind taking a look at a short video here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sftnjsecbh…{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2036.mov?dl=0

Is this the normal movement for this part? Should I try to take it apart for cleaning – even if I think it’s working well (once the valve is tapped) and is it safe to do so from the point of view of disturbing seals? Incidentally, it was shot with the dishwasher on its back.

Many thanks.

[iadom]

That looks fine and TBH I never had any problems with that part of the valve unit. It was either open circuit solenoids or sticking valves. Usually if you listen closely you can hear the valve buzzing.

[2Tricky]

iadom wrote:That looks fine and TBH I never had any problems with that part of the valve unit. It was either open circuit solenoids or sticking valves. Usually if you listen closely you can hear the valve buzzing.

Thanks iadom.

Yes, I always hear buzzing when it appears to have stalled. It looks like we know what I want and so I just have to get hold of one – somehow. Thanks for all the effort on this.

Cheers!

Update:

Sorry, I thought I was finished 🙂

It looks like I can’t find a second hand part that is atomically correct and so must consider an alternative. Would the part mentioned earlier (D120027) work in principle (pressure, voltage etc) – if I can modify brackets and pipe lengths to squeeze it in? Must these be orientated in a particular way or is there some flexibility? This would allow me to take the least route of resistance when fitting.

Thanks again 🙂

[iadom]

It’s very doubtful that the later valve unit would work. It is so long ago now but I think the pressure hose to the later valve was routed from a different part of the machine. The pressure levels would therefore be of a different calibration. The stainless steel solenoid plunger in the valve could be sticking. On later valves the sprung plunger is housed inside a plastic moulding but these earlier valves had a brass like alloy for the solenoid body. Over many years it was possible for a small amount of corrosion to cause the plunger to stick. Also the rubber diaphragm inside the valve deteriorates with age which also leads to valve failure. A very careful strip down of the actual solenoid mechanism to clean everything and inspect the diaphragm would be my next step.

[2Tricky]

iadom wrote:It’s very doubtful that the later valve unit would work. It is so long ago now but I think the pressure hose to the later valve was routed from a different part of the machine. The pressure levels would therefore be of a different calibration. The stainless steel solenoid plunger in the valve could be sticking. On later valves the sprung plunger is housed inside a plastic moulding but these earlier valves had a brass like alloy for the solenoid body. Over many years it was possible for a small amount of corrosion to cause the plunger to stick. Also the rubber diaphragm inside the valve deteriorates with age which also leads to valve failure. A very careful strip down of the actual solenoid mechanism to clean everything and inspect the diaphragm would be my next step.

Thanks iadom,

I’ll see if I can strip it down for examination/cleaning without being destructive and if push comes to shove, buy the same again. I’m not too surprised to hear that plastic has replaced metal.

Thanks again.

[2Tricky]

Sorry to be a bad penny iadom, but I am anxious to not compromise the valve whilst taking it apart…

Here is a shot of the valve: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zgsdjnobln8phsv/Photo{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2014-04-2021{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2C{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2009{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2048{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2019.jpg?dl=0
I can’t get a satisfactory grip on the two screws in yellow, before removing the solenoid’s sheet metal frame – but don’t know how to take this off. Does the plastic whitish part in front of the red arrow turn? It doesn’t yield with moderate force. The solenoid is loosely held in place by a bent arm (blue arrow) that appears to keep it roughly aligned, but it also appears to prevent a straight-up extraction.

Any ideas on how to tackle this or should I simply force the screwdriver in as best I can?

Thanks!

[iadom]

The solenoid should lift off, use two flat bladed screwdrivers if possible to avoid bending the brass moulding. It was very common practice to just change this type of solenoid from one valve to another if you didn’t have the correct valve. This type of solenoid was almost universally used on most washers and dishwashers in the 70s/80s/90s.
ln fact looking at that you may have a valve with a plastic core. I have used solenoids, diaphragms, plungers etc from other valves many , many times in the past.

[electrofix]

iadom wrote:The solenoid should lift off, use two flat bladed screwdrivers if possible to avoid bending the brass moulding. It was very common practice to just change this type of solenoid from one valve to another if you didn’t have the correct valve. This type of solenoid was almost universally used on most washers and dishwashers in the 70s/80s/90s.
ln fact looking at that you may have a valve with a plastic core. I have used solenoids, diaphragms, plungers etc from other valves many , many times in the past.

had the same valve type in an old Miele washer the other week. opened valve and the rubber diaphragm was a different size from the current units

Dave

[2Tricky]

electrofix wrote:

had the same valve type in an old Miele washer the other week. opened valve and the rubber diaphragm was a different size from the current units

Dave

iadom and Dave;

Well; I admit that generally I try once and hesitate twice when using force, but my first attempt with screwdrivers that were marginaly too thick failed, and so I’ll give it a second shot and this time holding it in a vice (carefully). It looks to me like the “catch” is well and truly bent beneath the base plate and the sheet metal is pretty thick too. I imagine that with the right tool it would be easy, even within the plasticity limits of the metal maybe (so no need to bend back afterwards), but without one, much less so.

Dave; where would I get a replacement diaphragm if necessary?

Thanks for the advice again – and I’ll be sure to let you know how it goes!

[electrofix]

you have never been able to buy diaphrams. you would need a valve of the same type to take it out of

Dave

[2Tricky]

electrofix wrote:you have never been able to buy diaphrams. you would need a valve of the same type to take it out of

Dave

Ah!

I’ve taken it apart and found very little I think. The overflow area was bone dry and every area of the whole thing was clean. Although the diaphram is bruised where it seals the assembly, it has no leaks or marks to speak of and deforms freely and uniformly. The solenoid plunger seems curious in that you could say it has signs of impact on both ends (dropbox pic’s Plunger 1 & Plunger 2) and I’ve given links to the other parts too. The plunger seems to move perfectly freely in either orientation.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/swmhpvozmj…r{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}202.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pus58o86b4…r{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}201.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1hiezhwlml…32.18.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vfemytnku4…31.40.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rouvvyo5h9…{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2026.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p8yyusqvkb…{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2016.jpg?dl=0

I’d be gratefull if you would advise (if you can) and also which way the plunger goes back – if you remember – as I’ve forgotten!

Many thanks.

Update:
I think the orientation should be as in picture Plunger 1, as this end is plastic and seems to have more appropriate impact marks. It’s all reassembled now and I can only hope that the disturbance has improved something.

I’ll try it and report back. Thanks again.

[electrofix]

i would have inspected this diaphragm for splits etc

Dave

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