Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

[Penguin45]

Hi guys,
I have seen this business from both sides with regards to the way spares operations work, as an ex-Comet spares buyer and as an independent repairer. Some of you may recall a post from January when we discussed pricing structures (“What Would You Recommend” – Public General Enquiries – Jan 30th). I pointed out that we simply doubled the price of all parts to supply to OUR OWN service network, and they doubled the price to supply and fit for service calls.

Bear in mind that while we were servicing our “Own Brand” product from people like Balay, Domar, Vestfrost, Ocean, Tecnogas etc; we were not manufacturers, so our spares had already been sold once! And they were still bloody cheap.

If we are all honest about it, if an Askoll type pump costs a manufacturer more than £1 ex works I would be amazed – a major manufacturer (or manufacturing group) has purchasing power far beyond even the likes of the major independent spares specialists, yet the wholesalers can still normally stuff the manufacturers “trade prices” on common service parts.

Personally, I’m not bothered if my part comes in a nice white box with a sticker or a plain brown box – I AM concerned with quality (anyone remember the awful GRE pattern AEG pump? Cr@p! – however our Welsh friends supply the identical manufacturers pump for a fraction of Distri’s price). My pricing policy is based on value for money, plus my labour charge.

Very often, this can be the difference between a machine surviving (and me getting paid) and it going to the tip for a trivial fault. Surely if there is going to be a cheap product, it MUST be matched by correspondingly cheap spares. This must ask questions of Brians colleagues with their digiboard pricing policy – up to £130 to my knowledge – for machines which retail for £180-£250. Just who is trying to fool who? I have friends involved in electronics manufacture who have had a look at some of these boards and, apart from rubbishing the circuit protection (or complete absence of it), reckon they could be produced for £12-£15 a unit at low volume production.

I think the summation of all this is to ask for a bit of honesty. If Brians company are going to buy something for £1, I don’t mind paying £2 or even £3 for it, and charging my customer £5 (well, we’ve all got overheads) and putting my labour on top.

I find it especially difficult with certain parts charging my customers in the full knowledge that I got overcharged(26{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} discount), my wholesaler got overcharged (38{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} discount) and now I have to look them in the eye and give them a bill.

Which begs one further question – Why are we getting discount against retail, when retail no longer exists and we have suggested selling prices?

Brian, I think you’re a brave and honest man to start this discussion in here and I hope you will understand my reasons for a few frank opinions. I think you need to get to the bottom of some of your company’s purchase costs and see what your own margins are and then you may understand some of our concerns. Also, consider that a Company call-out charge is now £65 (K- confirm?). I would challenge the notion that any single appliance component costs (to the company) that much for any appliance!

Best regards,
Penguin45.

[brian]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

Thanks again for your replies. Interesting.

[Seriously though, we will buy genuine parts almost every time. with regards to your own spares, we do not get offered any special offers direct from you but depend on the wholesalers. (Check your price of C00023884 fan element for example) Compare that to Electrolux who have a constant list of special prices and even take offers on expensive AEG spares. If you were to mail us with monthly offers we would do far more business directuote]

We send special offers out to the trade accounts every month. This has recently been on offer and has been taken by most of my accounts. It is currently on offer from Masterpart at £4.49 in 2’s. (List is £35.14).

Do you have an account with Electrolux or pay by credit card ??

Regards

Brian

[kwatt]

Brian,

Since most manufacturers have shunned the small accounts there’s very few of us that actually have accounts with the manufacturers persay, we are forced to use distributors and if they ain’t got stock of the genuine, tough, we use what we can get.

I was an agent for Belling and it was an uphill battle to get a spares account and that was as an agent! Usually they are wanting a turnover of XXX PCM when we use X PCM. 🙄

K.

[Martin]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

Brian,

Please may I ask a specific questions at this stage?

I know you have a direct link with the compilation of the “Partfinder” CD Rom …… But are you able to influence the inclusion of ‘Technical information’ (Fault Codes/Wiring Diagrams/Sequence Charts) onto that CD Rom?????

Martin

[eastlmark]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

brian wrote:Thanks again for your replies. Interesting.

[Seriously though, we will buy genuine parts almost every time. with regards to your own spares, we do not get offered any special offers direct from you but depend on the wholesalers. (Check your price of C00023884 fan element for example) Compare that to Electrolux who have a constant list of special prices and even take offers on expensive AEG spares. If you were to mail us with monthly offers we would do far more business directuote]

We send special offers out to the trade accounts every month. This has recently been on offer and has been taken by most of my accounts. It is currently on offer from Masterpart at £4.49 in 2’s. (List is £35.14).

Do you have an account with Electrolux or pay by credit card ??

Regards

Brian

Yes we have an account with Electrolux and with you but we never get direct offers from you, but those common parts we do get on offer from the likes of Wash vac.

[Dales-Electronic]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

Brian – A lively debate as usual – I have tried to answer your earlier queries first and then will move on later. Our buy is currently about 50/50. We need to be competative, but at the same time profitable and since both parts are warranted for 12 months the margins count. Being a small company we keep our stock levels to a minimum and rely on next day delivery using JIT scheme. Technical info including diagrams is always important. Cheaper manuals a great idea, but a technical helpline would be as good, not some obdurate clown quoting ‘we don’t give out help to independents’
Misquote – The cost of an appliance is often cheaper than a repair. I ask you why??. Obviously, an exchange machine comes off the production line at base cost, add to this delivery, installation and disposal and the original service call. Surely, if the parts were cheaper the independent could repair the machine without the denegration of the manufacturers tradename. I have to say the problems with the Hotpoint WMA bearing and the Merloni W series are classic cases of a cock-up gone mad. As a company we have not sold one of your machines in the last two years. Word soon gets around the retailers and their customers. We are also getting feedback from the retailers, about the appalling delays customers are expected to tolerate from the Merloni group. The callout alone makes many customers just go out and buy another machine but not a Merloni group product. You quote the problem of high BER rates of appliances. We worked as agents for Merloni for three years and had to rely on experience, to carry out most the the repairs. If you don’t support your own, you should.
There are obviously a couple of differences muted here in that the larger companies can absorb the cost of higher priced CDs whilst the smaller ones rely on the manuals. Either way its the information that is important not its format. Unfortunately, the manufacturer and customer have different aspirations regarding the product. The manufacturer is not basically interested (unless covered by extended warranty), once the machine is over 12 months. However, the customer expects the machine to last for at least 7 years. We service companies just happen to be in the middle. An earlier thread about the quality of a Bosch dishwashers clearly indicates that we can either help or hinder the manufacturer.
I have to say that it is nice to see a manufacturer coming on the site and asking sensible questions. You will get straight answers, be they critical or praiseworthy. Best regards – Ian.

[Alex]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

Del wrote:Brian,

It is a shame that Alex has’nt come in on this topic yet (he is probably on another one of his holiday’s ) because he was an ex-merloni service agent like me.
When we and many other INDEPENDANTS were approached to take the merloni service work on, we were told that a fair proportion of the work we could expect, would be chargable work.
I personally was told I could reasonably expect between 5{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} to 10{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} to be chargeable work by both Niel Taplin and Dave Tunicliffe.

I can assure you that the actual figure was less than 2{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} averaged .
Regards as ever Del

What holiday? that is in a couple of weeks, I went 12 years without even a weekend off. Made up for it since though.

Anyway without detracting from the subject. I agree on less than 2{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} Merloni being chargeable. Most customers either took out an insurance, had a 5 year parts cover with the machine, or without trying to sound snobbish, didn’t have any money. We never sold any Merloni parts, even counter sales were controlled by Uxbridge.

I’ve just run my accounts through an excell file and on the number of calls, 28{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} were chargeable. The rest being under guarantee and insurance cover. The great thing with Lux Ins cover there is a small mark up on parts. All this is another story and really doesn’t belong here.

The point of this debate though is on pattern over genuine parts. I do not fit nor would entertain pattern parts. You only need a machine to fail big time, even if it was something else possibly months or years after you called, and if it came to an inspection that some rubbish had been fitted, things could get complicated.

Martin will probably remember the old Hoover word, BOJACK.

Alex

[Dales-Electronic]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

Just a quick one to add to Alex’s – the type of call carried out also has a bearing on what part gets used. If its manufacturers work, then obviously pattern parts are most likely not to be used. However, as stated earlier, if its a case of get the price right or scrap the machine/lose the job on a private call its open season –

[brian]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

I’d just to like to thank you all again for taking time to reply.

Just to answer a few comments –

Eastlmark – I’m not sure why you don’t receive any offers. Can you send me a private message with your account number on and I will look into it.

Yes, in the past manufactuers have perhaps “shunned” the smaller account. This was because of costs. Its a lot easier to deal with x amount of regional and national distributors telephoning the office one or twice a week and taking pallet quantities of spares each week. We could not cope with hundreds of small accounts all telephoning once or twice a week taking small quantities of spares each week. (And then there is invoicing costs, collection, banking…the list goes on).

I’m not saying this is right –there is a good argument against this. By the time the spare part is offered to the smaller dealer any initial special offer on the spare has been diluted several times. (Of course, I’ve got to be careful what I say – I’m going to have national and regional distributors on the phone complaining that I’m going to take away their business!!!).

Martin – Yes, I do have an influence on what information is available on Partfinder. There are reasons why technical information is not available on the disc – and I’m sure you know why. What I would like to offer to the tradeas “compensation” is easier access to manuals at a more reasonable price. I understand that this would not be ideal but it’s a start. When and how…I’m not sure yet.

Thanks again. All of you comments are being noted.

Brian

[kwatt]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

brian wrote:Martin – Yes, I do have an influence on what information is available on Partfinder. There are reasons why technical information is not available on the disc – and I’m sure you know why. What I would like to offer to the tradeas “compensation” is easier access to manuals at a more reasonable price. I understand that this would not be ideal but it’s a start. When and how…I’m not sure yet.

Without wanting to appear rude or too negative Brian, I really think you manufacturers are on the wrong track here.

We will not pay anymore to have information that should be freely available. There is, IIRC, some EU legislation which states that you have to make the information available, you may charge a reasonable amount for that information which is fair enough, but in effect after explaining to you why I would not pay for the CD ROM or DVD you now wish to charge me again for paper manuals with information in them that should be on the CD version! This sort of thing is why the independents are so jaded towards manufacturers etc. as it just appears to us that you’re trying to get still more revenues from people that, frankly, don’t have it to give.

It’s this simple, the independents won’t pay for it! The independents will just BER the appliance and recommend something that they can get information and spares for.

If you guys want an army of independents going through thousands of doors every month and recommending Hotpoint then you have to do what Hotpoint & Hoover always did, make the spares freely available and at a reasonable cost. Make the guys out there able to repair and understand them as if they don’t, they’ll just start recommending something else instead that does have those qualities.

In the good old days the machines were simple enough for most decent engineers to work it out easily enough and there were loads of them. Now with the plethora of models and constant revisions within a range it is becoming a struggle to keep up with the changes, therefore making repairs harder on goods which retail price is dropping. It is therefore not hard to see that, if there is not much value in a repair, then there is no value in paying for technical information.

I’ll leave you to work the rest out yourself, that’s enough free market analysis for today. 😉

K.

[kwatt]

Just as an experiment Brian, to show you what I mean regarding opinions on tech. info. please see the poll I just instigated on the front page. The results I think on that simple question alone will speak for themselves.

K.

[brian]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

No offence taken – it’s business ! I appreciate all of your feedback and I understand what you are saying.

And my last question…….(honestly !!)

What price would you consider reasonable, per issue, for the Partfinder disc in it’s current format ?

Brian

[kwatt]

Well we pay £20 bi-annually for the MFI Identiffier disc but the only reason we do that is that we actually need the information due the volume of calls we get on those appliances. For your stuff I’m lucky if I see one a week.

Now consider the value to me. 😉

K.

[Dave_Conway]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

Good thread this and most interesting reading.

I think ours is around the 50/50 mark also, mainly due to us selling spares over the counter and I have over the years learned where to buy identical spares in different and cheaper boxes 😉

On the whole though, Hotpoint and Merloni spares are virtually all purchased as genuine components, due to the special offers given to account holders, even “universal” spares not intended for the Hotperloni products we purchase due to the good prices we are ofered, i.e. VT9 thermostats and Dishwasher cutlery baskets.

As far as the Partfinder disk goes, Brian, you will remember the thread where we discussed the various manufacturer’s disks and relative prices and the info available on them, the info is all there and my comments remain unchanged.

Thanks for starting this thread though, most useful, especially the comments on trying to stop the trend of BER applainces by improving technical information and spares prices.

I’ll watch and comment with interest as this has a long way to go.

How about making online versions (pdf docs) and the like available for manuals, paper production costs you, one upload is there for life with no ongoing costs involved other than the webserver, which is already there.

Dave.

[admin]

Re: Patten or Genuine Spare Parts ????

Sorry to join this thread late…been on holiday.

I think that all manufacturers should take a look at the Bosch web site and see how its done freely.
We attend 100 hotperloni calls a month and the twist and turns of the cd are time consuming, its almost impossible to stock a bearing spider with so many spec changes to your product. But this is not new, when the cd first came out the Ariston bearing/spider/seals were a nightmare. We now have a situation where even the bracket securing the motor to a hotpoint determines which belt is fitted.
I am afraid your cd is poor in comparison to others but we are forced to cough up if we want the info.
The issue of pattern spares is really a non issue for an independent. You I sumamise are in charge of a spares department and as such have a budget and targets to meet. The factory price of an askol with filter ect is less than a £1.00, which your department has to buy at a price which gives the factory a profit. You in turn have to control the price of that pump to the uk market to ensure that you make a profit on that part. You offer varying discounts to the different levels within this trade and all levels are trying to make a profit, including us. Your department no doubt has to make a profit and whilst your appliances are available for £165.00 (autowasher) you wont make huge profit from me.

I will not tell you how many of your product we write off, but we don’t recommend your product as a replacement. If you want to increase the sales of spares, get the product more reliable first. We should not be changing £80.00 modules and eeproms at 13 months, bearings should last longer than 2 years. At the moment the reliability of your product is on a par with Servis who also overcharge for modules ect.. At the moment Technical info is not a problem as UKW is able to (and will continue to) offer massive support to its members through its own members experience and knowledge, its a relationship you should consider because others are at the moment..
We don’t loose private customers because of the price of your spares, we convert the call into an appliance sale which we deliver and fit.

regards

kheath

[Author]

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