Sealed or Shielded bearings?

[T_i_m]

Hi All,

I thought I’d ask this as a new topic as potentially it isn’t specific to any particular washing machine.

I’m possibly about to replace the bearings and seal on this ZWF1431W (sealed tub project) and it would appear the replacement bearing / seal kit comes with shielded bearings. Is this typical?

I think when I replaced the bearings in the AEG 5 years ago I used sealed bearings, working on the logic that if the main drum seal failed the inner bearing seal would act as a backup (and it was already 10 years old and the bush was looking quiet tired at that point)?

FWIW the old bearings on this 1431 are still fairly tight (therefore not allowing movement of the shaft in the seal) and I can’t see any damage or wear on the old seal (no signs of it being caught or distorted during assembly etc) so how come the shaft between and the shields of the bearings (and the outer bearing itself) have been damaged by water > rust?

Another thought .. on the tub and around the bearing (and therefore relating to the bearing assembly presumably) it says 1300RPM, yet the machine says it’s good for 1400RPM?

Is this another example of ‘designed to fail’ ..?

Right, I’m off down the brook with my washing .. 😉

All the best ..

T i m

[Penguin45]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

They’re not supposed to get wet at all, so it doesn’t matter. It’s all down to the seal and ferrule on the shaft.

Penguin45.

[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

Penguin45 wrote:They’re not supposed to get wet at all, so it doesn’t matter. It’s all down to the seal and ferrule on the shaft.

Penguin45.

Agreed, they aren’t ‘supposed’ to get wet and I understand the seal and the ferrule relationship, but how do you explain a new (in relative terms) machine with (presumably) new_from_the_factory ferrule and seal causing a bearing fail due to water ingress? It’s not even like there was much sign of calcium buildup and certianly none where it might matter?

Either they put the water in at the factory or something ‘new’ leaked then failed.

So my point is it looks like it might ‘matter’, so rather than have to go all through this again in a year (and working on the ISE principal of making things ‘better’) why can’t we put some backup systems into place if it costs little or nothing extra (apart from a bit of lateral thinking possibly) if we can do so? I don’t mean the Manufacturers (that would be silly ), I mean the people trying to keep this stuff running for themselves.

I propose a new seal, a liberal smear of something like Shell Retinax Grease EP2′ behind it and two sealed bearings.

What’s the odds that will last longer than a year (the AEG was on 5 after the same repair before the motor went)?

As part of this project I might even drill and tap a hole in the bottom of the iron sleeve that carries the bearings, fit a threaded outlet and run a small hose from there through the back of and into the filter access compartment. If it was clear hose and the end plugged you could even see if any water was actually getting past the seal and bearing … 😉

All the best ..

T i m

[kwatt]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

T_i_m wrote:Agreed, they aren’t ‘supposed’ to get wet and I understand the seal and the ferrule relationship, but how do you explain a new (in relative terms) machine with (presumably) new_from_the_factory ferrule and seal causing a bearing fail due to water ingress?

Because people only generally look at the ticket price in the shop and all too little else sadly. 😕

K.

[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

kwatt wrote:

T_i_m wrote:
Agreed, they aren’t ‘supposed’ to get wet and I understand the seal and the ferrule relationship, but how do you explain a new (in relative terms) machine with (presumably) new_from_the_factory ferrule and seal causing a bearing fail due to water ingress?

Because people only generally look at the ticket price in the shop and all too little else sadly. 😕

K.

Yeahbut, could that be because most of Macufacturers are playing this ‘price engineered’ game and the poor punters aren’t often given the facts (and as we have mentioed previously K, the facts aren’t always forthcoming or easy to find)?

IF, the base models were say £500 [1] and made (at least) ‘properly’ then they might just last longer than a year and you guys (the repair people) might get some more call-outs? “I’m not throwing this 2 year old 500 quid machine away I’m gonna get it fixed .. ” sorta idea? They wouldn’t bother if it was ‘only’ £200?

All the best ..

T i m

[1] The ISE principal again? Manufacturers would actully earn more profit by adding ~£300 for ~£20 worth of ‘improvements’ (like not glueing my tub together), you get more work and we have less landfill (win-win-win)! 😉

p.s. Can anyone give me a technical reason why I *shouldn’t* use sealed bearings please?

[Penguin45]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

I tried using sealed bearings on the old Creda 17 series machines, as the seal was a notorious weak spot. My conclusion is that they are not really sealed, at best water repellant. They just failed more slowly.

Worth noting that the previous range of Hotpoint machines used an open cage rear bearing for the best part of 30 years.

Given that this is a “project”, you’re best bet would be to drill a drain hole through the bearing housing just in front of the bearing and just accept that you’ll get the odd dribble down the back.

Penguin45.

[kwatt]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

Hi Tim,

Given that you are obviously intelligent and get the whole swindle thing you’ll probably also realise that the worst enemy that a lot of people that buy appliances have is themselves. Many don’t ask or stop to think what the consequences are of serial cost cutting, they just don’t care so long as it’s a low price.

Then, a couple of years or so later (if it even takes that long) we have them on the phone if you’re a manufacturers agent as I am or on here mumping that they goods weren’t “fit for purpose” never stopping to think about the value of the goods. Fact is that people have an expectation of how long appliances will last, most often longer than most people will own a car, yet invest little time to research them and even less money in them.

Now that may seem a tad harsh on the surface of it but it’s not really, we’re all guilty of not paying attention from time to time.

When I started UKW one of the first things I did was try to tell people through the manufacturer section, which back in the beginning was nowhere near as complete as it is now, but the notion was there. Two things, as usual, worked against it getting done any faster, time and money. You see everything here has been done either for free often very graciously by the independent repairers themselves or myself and others directly involved. I’d love to do more, a lot more, but there are constraints on both the time and money thing.

We try to tell people, but it only works when they actually listen to us.

And still we see, almost daily, where can I get the best, cheapest, fastest, longest lasting washing machine.. Oh and for less than £200! :rolls:

After a while it tends to grate more than a little and it’s why sometimes the answers can be a little curt at times.

In short people will get what they pay for and, so long as people won’t or can’t pay for quality then there’s absolutely nothing we can do about it and manufacturers won’t change so long as the most important thing to them in the sea of white boxes at the local emporium is price. All that we could do was to have our own brand to combat this as best we could, hence ISE.

You are absolutely correct, because it’s “only a couple of hundred quid” people toss them out thinking that they just got a bad one. After two or three people start to learn, sometimes, that they’re really not doing themselves any favours with the cheap rubbish but it often takes a while to sink in sadly.

So, as long as people continue the practise and don’t try to break it then it will continue. It will continue to cost more money and produce more waste.

But it’s okay according to the industry bigwgs, we can save a polar bear by all turning it down to 30 and buying new, more efficient, appliances.

K.

[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

Penguin45 wrote:I tried using sealed bearings on the old Creda 17 series machines, as the seal was a notorious weak spot. My conclusion is that they are not really sealed, at best water repellant. They just failed more slowly.

😉

Worth noting that the previous range of Hotpoint machines used an open cage rear bearing for the best part of 30 years.

I guess the logic there is similar to the old 2CV. First the roof leaks, then the floor rusts and leaks and the system is in balance. 😉

Given that this is a “project”, you’re best bet would be to drill a drain hole through the bearing housing just in front of the bearing and just accept that you’ll get the odd dribble down the back.

Penguin45.

Yeah, I think I will do that (I mentioned it elsewhere) but being me I’ll fit a stub pipe and run a tube to the front filter area so I can keep an eye on it (and keep any dribbles away from the motor). 😉

All the best ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

kwatt wrote:Hi Tim,

Given that you are obviously intelligent

Aww shucks 😉

and get the whole swindle thing you’ll probably also realise that the worst enemy that a lot of people that buy appliances have is themselves. Many don’t ask or stop to think what the consequences are of serial cost cutting, they just don’t care so long as it’s a low price.

Well to be fair I’m not sure it’s dawned on many of them yet to ask if there actually is an alternative? Where is all the TV advertising between the soaps or time on Watchdog?

Then, a couple of years or so later (if it even takes that long) we have them on the phone if you’re a manufacturers agent as I am or on here mumping that they goods weren’t “fit for purpose” never stopping to think about the value of the goods. Fact is that people have an expectation of how long appliances will last, most often longer than most people will own a car, yet invest little time to research them and even less money in them.

Well the days of a car being (finantially) un-repairable after 3 years isn’t far off … assuming we let it be that way of course (and we will).

Now that may seem a tad harsh on the surface of it but it’s not really, we’re all guilty of not paying attention from time to time.

True ..

When I started UKW one of the first things I did was try to tell people through the manufacturer section, which back in the beginning was nowhere near as complete as it is now, but the notion was there. Two things, as usual, worked against it getting done any faster, time and money. You see everything here has been done either for free often very graciously by the independent repairers themselves or myself and others directly involved. I’d love to do more, a lot more, but there are constraints on both the time and money thing.

All understood and I think what you have here is brilliant .. but I’m not sure it’s something yer average punter would stumble on?

We try to tell people, but it only works when they actually listen to us.

But were are the newspaper ads K, the hard sales pitch to the resellers?

And still we see, almost daily, where can I get the best, cheapest, fastest, longest lasting washing machine.. Oh and for less than £200! :rolls:

After a while it tends to grate more than a little and it’s why sometimes the answers can be a little curt at times.

Understood ..

In short people will get what they pay for and, so long as people won’t or can’t pay for quality then there’s absolutely nothing we can do about it and manufacturers won’t change so long as the most important thing to them in the sea of white boxes at the local emporium is price. All that we could do was to have our own brand to combat this as best we could, hence ISE.

I sometimes chat to the guy who sells the cheap tools on the local market. A lady brought back a pair of £1 garden shears after 18 months because they ‘didn’t work any more’. Actually they just needed some servicing (ie, the nut tightening up) so the guy gave her her money back (it was easier).

You are absolutely correct, because it’s “only a couple of hundred quid” people toss them out thinking that they just got a bad one. After two or three people start to learn, sometimes, that they’re really not doing themselves any favours with the cheap rubbish but it often takes a while to sink in sadly.

True to a degree, however, if I buy a £2.50 multimeter from Maplins I don’t expect to be able to work it in a commercial role, but I do expect it to last a reasonable amount of time if used ‘reasonably’? Putting a £200 washer though 4 full loads a day might be considered a ‘heavy duty’ role but one load every other may not (so the machine should last longer than 1 year)?

So, as long as people continue the practise and don’t try to break it then it will continue. It will continue to cost more money and produce more waste.

True ..

But it’s okay according to the industry bigwgs, we can save a polar bear by all turning it down to 30 and buying new, more efficient, appliances.

Well, there is that I’m sure, but I understand the energy used in creating, disposing and/or re-processing of this gear far outweighs the energy the less efficient devices waste over their lifetimes (especially these days!). Similar with a more reliable appliance that doesn’t require many (any?) service visits .. they all add to the carbon footprint etc.

Nope, I believe we should all fix our own stuff, like back in the old days [1] …. ah, hold on, whatabout all you service engineers 🙁 I’ll get me coat! 😉

All the best ..

T i m

[1] I think when the revolution comes that statement will be more that just a joke. Or those of us who can will have the wealth we have long deserved …

[Penguin45]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

Nice to see the light bulb on, T i m 😀 .

UKW and tv ads…… hmm – got any money you’d like to donate?

This site runs on a shoestring and is probably seen by the “big boys” as an irritation. We’re quite right, they know we’re right, I know we’re right and you know we’re right. Trouble is, a small group of annoyed independent repairers with a website versus the global power of the big manufacturers aided and abetted by the retail sheds….. There are times I think that you have to be a special sort of masochist to keep on and on spreading the message. Often (like this thread), one to one – hopefully, others read the threads and learn.

Thing is, I don’t actually have a problem with cheap washers. Realistically, they should have cheap parts to reflect their status and give them a chance of being servicable – the drum unit in your appliance is a classic example of what is really happening. It’s a nice looking, AAB efficient machine, which at face value offers nice “green” operating credentials. Blows it by not amortising it’s production energy over a reasonable period though, doesn’t it?

Imagine a 2CV where you couldn’t take the engine apart because it was welded together.

I rest my case. 😀

Penguin45

[kwatt]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

T_i_m wrote:Well to be fair I’m not sure it’s dawned on many of them yet to ask if there actually is an alternative? Where is all the TV advertising between the soaps or time on Watchdog?

Doesn’t exist.

Media are barely interested nor are the public at large as they don’t know without the media telling them that it is so it would appear, us telling people at times seems to have little effect but thankfully some people do get it. The effort isn’t entirely wasted.

T_i_m wrote:Well the days of a car being (finantially) un-repairable after 3 years isn’t far off … assuming we let it be that way of course (and we will).

Yep, shortened lifespans of cars… brilliant… for car manufacturers.

Same thing, different industry.

T_i_m wrote:All understood and I think what you have here is brilliant .. but I’m not sure it’s something yer average punter would stumble on?

Normally no, it’s not. We can only do what we can do and rely on people telling others.

T_i_m wrote:But were are the newspaper ads K, the hard sales pitch to the resellers?

Remember that time and money thing… 😉

T_i_m wrote:I sometimes chat to the guy who sells the cheap tools on the local market. A lady brought back a pair of £1 garden shears after 18 months because they ‘didn’t work any more’. Actually they just needed some servicing (ie, the nut tightening up) so the guy gave her her money back (it was easier).

Yep and a lot of people just expect that, it’s the norm now.

T_i_m wrote:True to a degree, however, if I buy a £2.50 multimeter from Maplins I don’t expect to be able to work it in a commercial role, but I do expect it to last a reasonable amount of time if used ‘reasonably’? Putting a £200 washer though 4 full loads a day might be considered a ‘heavy duty’ role but one load every other may not (so the machine should last longer than 1 year)?

That all depends on how you define “reasonable”.

T_i_m wrote:Well, there is that I’m sure, but I understand the energy used in creating, disposing and/or re-processing of this gear far outweighs the energy the less efficient devices waste over their lifetimes (especially these days!). Similar with a more reliable appliance that doesn’t require many (any?) service visits .. they all add to the carbon footprint etc.

Correct, but we don’t talk about that, AMDEA gets all upset when we challenge the bull that they purvey.

T_i_m wrote:Nope, I believe we should all fix our own stuff, like back in the old days [1] …. ah, hold on, whatabout all you service engineers 🙁 I’ll get me coat! 😉

Loads of people can’t fix their own appliances or jut don’t want the hassle and in those cases we’re more that happy to help, that’s what we do and how we make a living. But barriers like fault codes, silly parts pricing, stupid pointless electronics and just lack of information stops not only us, but everyone else from making the machines last longer through deliberate policy or silly EU/UK legislation.

I don’t think that’s right. I never have and I never will.

K.

[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

Penguin45 wrote:Nice to see the light bulb on, T i m 😀 .

Hey, it happens. 😉

UKW and tv ads…… hmm – got any money you’d like to donate?

Don’t they say ‘speculate to accummulate’ ?

This site runs on a shoestring and is probably seen by the “big boys” as an irritation.

If seen by them at all?

We’re quite right, they know we’re right, I know we’re right and you know we’re right.

Glad we have that sorted, right, off to the pub! 😉

Trouble is, a small group of annoyed independent repairers with a website versus the global power of the big manufacturers aided and abetted by the retail sheds…..

🙁

There are times I think that you have to be a special sort of masochist to keep on and on spreading the message. Often (like this thread), one to one – hopefully, others read the threads and learn.

Well I guess P . Are there no Euro Directives in the pipeline that will force the manufactureres to make this stuff better and / or more repairable? Like there is supposedly £250 on every new car sale to offset the cost of disposal to the final keeper? You have to pay to dispose of tyres now, some public refuse plases are charging / visit? As soo as it cost more than £0 to get rid of OUR stuff (charged directly to us, rather than invisibly through council taxes etc) then again that might get factored into this ‘repair or replace’ dilemma? (but knowing the good citezens of the UK will probably just end up in a ditch somewhere).

Thing is, I don’t actually have a problem with cheap washers.

Look, everyone, we’ve outed the infidel!!! 😉

Realistically, they should have cheap parts to reflect their status and give them a chance of being servicable – the drum unit in your appliance is a classic example of what is really happening. It’s a nice looking, AAB efficient machine, which at face value offers nice “green” operating credentials. Blows it by not amortising it’s production energy over a reasonable period though, doesn’t it?

Yup, big time P. And partly why I’m on this mini ‘crusade’, to see if with a bit of latteral thinking, some luck and a tweek or two I can’t give this particular white box another 5 years life?

Imagine a 2CV where you couldn’t take the engine apart because it was welded together.

Hey, that’s my line! But joking aside that *is* the way cars are going. Everything managed by the CPU(s). Engines that are bolted together with one-way-trip bolts, gearboxes and axles already ‘sealed for life’? but go to those countries where there is more sense (need?) than money and some amazing things are done on a daily bases to keep this stuff running on a shoestring. *We* should know better, we should be doing things because it’s the right thing to do, not the one that will earn the most money. I’m all for not giving the consumer the chance to buy rubbish by forcing all manufacturers to provide warranties for (say) 3 years (minimum) on this stuff, it shouldn’t be a consumable. If to do that means they can’t actually scrimp on the last few pence that makes a tub sealed rather than openable that we are back on track.

All the best ..

T i m

[cockney steve]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

Tim, I’d suggest that 3 loads a week for 1 year would be considerably cheaper than the launderette!

Sealed bearings “aren’t”…tin shields or rubber seals, makes no difference,there’s a gap between the inner-race and the seal-lip otherwise it would get “friction burns”

many washers used to have a drain-hole between the drum-seal and front bearing…many a rusty streak has been seen down the back of the tub !

IMO, you should consider a “flinger”-basically ,it’s a washer which is a tight fit on the shaft, but smaller than the bearing…it would go between the seal and the front bearing (maybe a shim-ring between the inner -race and the flinger?)

Any water penetrating the seal will then be thrown clear before it can percolate along to the bearing.

I don’t think extra grease will help–maybe waterpump grease or calcium-oxide based “white brake grease”, would stand a fighting chance-but normal Lithium grease absorbs water and soon emulsifies,thus rusting the bearing.

Your solution is stainless-steel or ceramic bearings…research bearings on the net, you’ll find that equivalent s/s bearings are downrated considerably but I don’t think the loading is anything like max in the average washer anyway!

I’m following your saga with interest..spent many years repairing “sealed” throwaway stuff. sometimes,obselescence or non-availability make it a necessity or cost -effective alternative to scrapping.

[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

cockney steve wrote:Tim, I’d suggest that 3 loads a week for 1 year would be considerably cheaper than the launderette!

😉

Sealed bearings “aren’t”…tin shields or rubber seals, makes no difference,there’s a gap between the inner-race and the seal-lip otherwise it would get “friction burns”

So, out of interest, what is the difference then please?

many washers used to have a drain-hole between the drum-seal and front bearing…many a rusty streak has been seen down the back of the tub !

Like car water pumps .. 😉

IMO, you should consider a “flinger”-basically ,it’s a washer which is a tight fit on the shaft, but smaller than the bearing…it would go between the seal and the front bearing (maybe a shim-ring between the inner -race and the flinger?)

Any water penetrating the seal will then be thrown clear before it can percolate along to the bearing.

But where would the water go next Steve? I can understand how it might distract it from the inner race / seal area but only till that void became full of water anyway? Maybe we should drain water from there in any case, make it a ‘wet’ (as in drips) area (like some folk do with the stern tubes on their boats)?

I don’t think extra grease will help–maybe waterpump grease or calcium-oxide based “white brake grease”, would stand a fighting chance-but normal Lithium grease absorbs water and soon emulsifies,thus rusting the bearing.

But might that space (back of seal to front of bearing) nearly filled with waterproof grease not delay water ingress a while? After all, it’s not going in there under any pressure? I have a tub of this:

“Millergrease D180. Specially designed to lubricate plain bearings, open gear, wire rope and all sliding surface applications
resistant greases where water wash-off action is a problem with conventional greases. Highly resistant to mechanical shearing action and oscillation. Ideal underwater greases or for plain surface applications exposed to adverse wet weather conditions which will remove more conventional greases. The smooth consistency of D180 makes it easy to apply either by automatic greasing equipment or manually.”

I got that because it’s specificially going to try to form a waterproof barrier between bearing and outer seal, rather than lubricate the bearings per-se.

Your solution is stainless-steel or ceramic bearings…research bearings on the net, you’ll find that equivalent s/s bearings are downrated considerably but I don’t think the loading is anything like max in the average washer anyway! [/qoute]

I did check out ss Steve but the cost was too much to risk for this particular project. My goal here is just to see if I can rebuld a sealed tub machine and have it spin at 1400 RPM without sounding like a Chinook or wetting itself (oh, and have it last more than a year after that). I also have a tube of White ‘TigerSeal’ at the ready for the tub halves. I just need to get a suitable hex driven drill (to get down low and parallel to the tub sides) to drill out the bolt lugs and ss bolts to join the tub together again. Dave has sent the seal and I got the bearings from Steve at http://www.simplybearings.co.uk.

[quote:33q0sg48] I’m following your saga with interest..spent many years repairing “sealed” throwaway stuff. sometimes,obselescence or non-availability make it a necessity or cost -effective alternative to scrapping.

Thanks fellow Womble. 😉

All the best ..

T i m

[cockney steve]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

yes! just like a waterpump on a car (that’s another racket! )…they also have a drain hole ,which I’d assumed would be your priority mod when you rework this “disposable “machine.

As regards your bonding…investigate “sikaflex”….if it’s good enough to bond car panels together,and fit windscreens, I’m sure it will bond a tub, PROVIDING the plastic is compatible!

Sikaflex is a i-part air -curing polyurethane sealant, -sticks better than s**t to an army-blanket 😆 I’ve stuck a piece of 22 gauge to an old windscreen, -torn the tin with Mole-grips,reduced the (laminated) glass to fragments,but the bond held firm!

shielded bearings (tin) primarily for “large” dirt and grit exclusion…”seals”
are “splashproof”a damp enclosure will hold the moisture which WILL permeate past these seals.

No-matter how much grease you TRY to pack in, the shaft is revolving, therefore there’s a shear-line running through the grease (not forgetting centrifugal force (centripetal for the pedantic!)…..so water will ,theoretically be able to go along the shaft…..back to plan A-slinger and drain-hole…..or you COULD connect your drain-hole to an aquarium-pump and use a sealed back-bearing, thus the bearings would enjoy positive pressureand the seal would press more firmly against the shaft….but that would make it wear quicker…the shaft surface HAS to be “rough” enough to hold lubricant for the seal!(and they’re really oil-seals, not water seals, except the flat-faced one on my current hoover which bears against a ceramic washer bonded to the spider/shaft interface.

[Author]

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