Staggering Really

[kwatt]

This post contains strong views that may offend, tough as it’s all personal comment only from what I see in my business.

We all know that there’s a skills shortage, it’s pretty obvious and, it’s also pretty obvious that we’re inevitably headed for a time when trained, skilled and experienced people will be in short supply. It’s not just this industry either, just try getting a joiner, plumber or builder these days. They don’t want to know or book you in months in advance, hell even the local car dealerships there’s a week plus wait to get a service let alone a problem sorted.

So why is it so damned hard to get funding to take on staff and train them? I mean really, how many hoops am I expected to jump through just to set on a trainee? Then I start to wonder if it’s worth the b***dy effort even trying as all I get is frustrated at every turn.

I have an engineer, my father, who is 60+ and Robert who is 50+ and so I want to train a lad up to offset them slowing down and to gain the experience and knowledge to do the job. Noble aims, pity it’s made so damn hard.

You see even paying the lad minimum wage of £4.25 per hour for 36 hours a week it comes out at £153, by the time I add on all the on-costs and insurance I’m looking at at least £250 just to employ him. That’s a serious hit to take, it works out at over a grand per month. Factor in a year to reallyget him earning anything and you see the problem.

Then add on the training costs for CORGI etc etc

I even have a lad that’s willing, able and as keen as mustard, what I don’t have is the funding to train him or employ him. This is made worse as, for at least the first six months, he won’t net me a penny, so it’s just pure cost. Then if I want him to do NVQ (for now) I have to send him South and pay for the travelling, accomodation and expenses.

As you can appreciate this isn’t looking good for the poor lad.

But…

If I employ a Polish immigrant I can get funding and an interpreter, or a donation to costs. Great.

Any disabled, ethnic or disadvantaged group you like, no problem, funding available.

White UK citizen born in the UK, forget it.

So, if you happen to be a one-armed, gay South African (or any other nation bar the UK) then you’re laughing, no problem to get funding to do just about anything. Sad that now, instead of perhaps discriminating against small ethnic minorities (which I’m sure still goes on sadly) we now seem to discriminate against our own citizens as well.

Admittedly I’ve not spent oodles of time on this and, frankly, I don’t have it to waste chasing down ludicrous long-winded documents from government. Can they not just keep it simple to understand?

So if you’re wondering how the UK is going to manage to support itself with skilled labour in the future well, your guess is as good as mine as we seem to be too busy training people from other countries, those that are not suitable so nobody uses the funds or just making it so damn difficult that nobody bothers.

All personal comment as it got to me this afternoon and I’m not having a go at anyone other than government and the absurdity of them banging on about training and upskilling only to foil you at every turn.

K.

[Jackal]

Re: Staggering Really

Ken hi

Tell me all about it.

Just after the MG Rover break up, I had the opportunity to take on some extra work giving around about 40-60 jobs a week and paying around £55.00 + VAT for the completion. Problem was some of the work was on refrigeration products which my guys dont currently do.

So i thinks to me self, why not ask the the big cheeses at the government and local business link to find me an ex rover worker willing to be retrained to work on refrigeration products.

Guess what, not only were then not willing to meet me anywhere on the costs issue, but they actually said they couldn’t help me find someone as they were only paid to find groups of jobs.

Needless to say, the task forces set up to find these poor souls work were taking their cut for sitting on their backsides for nothing. It really made my blood boil.

Well eventually, we walked away from the deal cussing that you just carn’t give a job away.

Three months later, I gets a call from the same people asking me to interview a lady for a call centre job I had advertised. I agreed and on the day of the interview, the polish lady turned up complete with her interpreter as she didnt speak a word of english. What bloody use was that for a call centre.

On speaking to the task force people again and in no uncertain terms informing them not to waste my fu….g time (sorry) again, they only go and tell me I can receive a grant for taking her on and get additional grants for the time she would be away learning english.

Ken your right. I’m no racist or anything but it seems to me at times that good old hard working nationals of this country get a discriminated against compared to some of these immigrants coming to this country.

I was always taught to look after your own first, it seems the powers that be didnt get them message.

Rant over and thanks for allowing me to get if off my chest.

Jackal

[chezza]

Re: Staggering Really

We all know that there’s a skills shortage,

ironically, I have spent the best part of 3 years trying to get back in to the domestic appliance trade , having many years of multi skilled experience, yet due to my post code, I have had virtually no luck. 😥
I am seriously considering turning my back on a trade that has given me many years of experience and skills . what a waste of 27 years

[iadom]

Re: Staggering Really

Ken, I hope you don’t mind, but I posted the main thrust of your first post in another forum that I frequent. Some of the replies have been interesting, this one in particular. Care to comment.

Quote

I am afraid this post has wound me up no end. It is the ussual half baked – daily mail style I’m not racist but…. nonsense.

1) There are no subsidies for Polish people who are migrant workers- they pay their own way

2) I removed this one as it refers to another post,linking this problem with higher education. Jim.

3) We do need good vocational options- but the politicians are so scared of the middle class education/ daily mail mafia that we have an education system biased towards the academic

4) Aprenticeships – are available with funding for ‘a lad’ or indeed ‘a lass’ with no reference to race or sexuality (another Daily mail myth)
details here http://www.apprenticeships.org.uk/

5) The national employer training pilot offers funding to support those who do not yet have a level 2 see http://etp.lsc.gov.uk/

6) So called positive discrimination is unlawful

Unquote

EDIT. found this link from point, 4) http://www.apprenticeships.org.uk/list/ … vicing.htm

[aqualectric]

Re: Staggering Really

I was doing a dishwasher repair at a local college a few weeks ago and at the same time chatting with the tutor waiting with me. I was telling her it was getting harder to keep up with the workload and the need to employ someone soon was getting urgent to keep up with demand. She said there must be a huge requirement for new recruits to train for the Dom App. industry and would I consider taking on a modern apprentice.
So I thought, Steve; don’t put on your cynical hat just yet, so I said ‘Yes’ I could be interested.
She said she had 2 lads 19 and 21 that would fit the bill perfectly.
Wait for it…. one was badly dyslexic – the other had learning and emotional problems. The best bit is; she was deadly serious. Now, no disrespect to the lads concerned but I was waiting for Jeremy Beadle to jump out and shove a camera in my face!! 😆
I asked her why I couldn’t I be offered one of the many unemployed post -grads that litter the bedsits around here with brains and ambition that usually waste their intelligence working in fast food outlets and why, because our trade is a manual job we were only offered life’s potato peelings. (I didn’t word it quite like that – but she got my point).
‘So you wouldn’t be interested then’ she said and I thought, what’s the point? 😕 End of conversation.
The system ignores our trade, and denies youngsters the opportunity to see past the ‘sharp suit and 9 to 5 in an office’ workplace ‘ideal’.
I enquired a while back locally to see if any training courses were available for Dom App. engineers. Not a thing – even Eastleigh college have discontinued their course due to ‘lack of applicants’. Very strange considering the skill shortage.
Unless something is done to alter the mindset of the staff at the colleges and jobcentre ( who incidentally only offered me ‘New Start’ candidates ie: ex – prisioners and long term unemployed – nothing else) and possibly the Government (although to find a working mind amongst them would be a revelation) this industry we know and love will probably cease to be.
The lack of foresight and common sense IS monumentally staggering.
So when us ‘oldies’ hang up our hats for the last time – then what??? 😥
That’s it, I’m off for a large whisky and a cold shower. 😆

[kwatt]

Re: Staggering Really

iadom wrote:Quote

I am afraid this post has wound me up no end. It is the ussual half baked – daily mail style I’m not racist but…. nonsense.

1) There are no subsidies for Polish people who are migrant workers- they pay their own way

2) I removed this one as it refers to another post,linking this problem with higher education. Jim.

3) We do need good vocational options- but the politicians are so scared of the middle class education/ daily mail mafia that we have an education system biased towards the academic

4) Aprenticeships – are available with funding for ‘a lad’ or indeed ‘a lass’ with no reference to race or sexuality (another Daily mail myth)
details here http://www.apprenticeships.org.uk/

5) The national employer training pilot offers funding to support those who do not yet have a level 2 see http://etp.lsc.gov.uk/

6) So called positive discrimination is unlawful

Unquote

This looks like a newsgroup trolling actually, but nevertheless…

Ask whever posted that if they are an employer and if they have actually tried to employ someone. Assuming that whoever it is speaks with some authority then he can rest assured that I have no idea what he means in reference to what I assume is tabloid newspapers as I don’t read them, any of them, including local newspapers. I don’t have time to read rubbish.

There are subsidies for foreign unemployed, even the provision of a translator is a subsidy, doesn’t matter how you want to slice it. The term “Polish” was used merely as a reference, the race should not matter but interestingly I can’t get a translator for a Geordie. Oh dear, now I’ve offended all the Geordies as well and we even employ one of them!

Funnily enough I’m a Scot, not one of my co-directors for ISE or UKW are Scots, there’s a Yorkshireman, an Irishman living in Wales and another from Devon. For NWAR one of the three equal directors (the number includes myself) is of Burmese origin whom I’ve known for some 15 years or so and is a friend as well as a collegue. And a good friend, one of my closest, is Chinese.

I’m quite happy talking and socialising with any race, creed, colour or whatever other label you wish to assign.

Do I have a problem with racism, no.

Stop being so silly, picky and jumping to conclusions not based in fact.

Oh dear, conspiricy theorist, that’s all I need to waste my time with. I’m afraid that whilst President Tony thinks that the middle class has been done away with, the middle classes havent’ sussed it yet.

Vocational qualifications are admirable and a good start to any career as they generally provide a good grounding. They are not however any substitute for experience, without subsidising salary as well as the training to actually get young people, that are costing lots of money, SME’s will continue to steer away from training as it only costs and most cannot afford to foot the bill. Sorry if you don’t like that but it’s the reality from my point of view.

Apprenticeships are available but it’s not exactly easy. And I refer back to the previous paragragh, explain to me just how I (with no budget for it) subsidise a trainee for at least 6-12 months paying them minimum wage with no return on that investment for the period? On top of which, whilst this provides the basic skills it does not stretch to the qualifications needed in the industry such as an ACRIB or CORGI certificate. Funding is available for that as well, but that’s a postcode lottery as many of these funding schemes are.

The http://etp.lsc.gov.uk/ link only applies to England. Does that mean that the rest of the United Kingdom is being discriminated against? Or is it that the Scots are discriinating by having their own semi-system of government? It does not apply to me or my company as we are based in Scotland and is therefore of no use.

I asked Scottish Enterprise about this, or at least Ayrshire Enterprise (the local quango I assume) and they have told me that there is no funding available other than for NVQ qualifications. Sadly there’s nowhere I can go locally to get an industry relevant NVQ so, no funding.

As for point 6, just who am I discriminating against? I fail to see any logic in that remark at all.

The only discrimination that I can see going on is towards young, able and capable people that want to work. They seem to have had it and get little to no help from the powers that be, unless they’ve been registered unemployed for six months plus and get on the New Deal scheme. Even then, it’s not exactly attractive.

K.

[aqualectric]

Re: Staggering Really

Ken, like me, it’s unfortunate we live and work IN THE PREDICAMENT; not stand outside and wring our hands about THE PREDICAMENT. So you raise your head above the pulpit to have your hat shot off – for what? Free speech is being strangled; but the real points are being missed or deliberately ignored. There is a crisis in our industry and race, colour, creed, or religion isn’t going to change that. But people expressing their point of view WILL – PC or not. There is none so blind as those who will not see. I wish I had the time to disect someone’s every word rather than understanding what he trying to express and realising he is saying it because he may be slightly p***ed off. 🙄

[Jonah]

Re: Staggering Really

Ken, I havent posted for quite some time but I have a point on this subject, my son left school last summer and is still struggling to try and get into this Industry, a trade he knows well and has been involved with me for the last few years, I cannot afford the cost of training him and the wages even at the minimum wage as we are too small a business, I recently enquired about grants etc for him and was asked the usual questions disabled, ethnic background, learing disabilities the list goes on.

If as I am sure I had said my son was from Eastern Europe with some sort of physical or mental disdability i’m pretty sure I would have a Trainee engineer at the moment but sad to say i am still trying to get him on the ladder with any contacts I can find within the trade, no luck as yet.

regards

Dave

[Phidom]

Re: Staggering Really

I’m sure you don’t have to pay the minimum wage to a trainee. A friend of mine went down to Dorking to train as a hairdresser and he was on something like £2.50 / hour. He had to give it up and come back to Scotland before completing the course as his girlfriend moved out and he could not afford the rent on their flat on his own.

[technics1200]

Re: Staggering Really

White UK citizen born in the UK, forget it.

So, if you happen to be a one-armed, gay South African (or any other nation bar the UK) then you’re laughing, no problem to get funding to do just about anything. Sad that now, instead of perhaps discriminating against small ethnic minorities (which I’m sure still goes on sadly) we now seem to discriminate against our own citizens as well.

hi ken.

first i would like to apologise i didnt come to the meeting. totally overrun.

anyway, i have to say here that you sound like your a victim of media spin mate. there are scroungers of every background and ethnicity.

but then again i may be unqualified to comment on this subject, cos i am not a

White UK citizen

but a uk citizen by birth.

I have also tried to get funding, and one organization i tried to get a grant off has paperwork that says ‘please specify your ethnicity’. “Now hold on a sec?” I said to the consultant, i”t shouldnt be important. im a human. thats all that matters.”

i refused to reveal my ethnicity on the paperwork in the end, as it was for a grant, and is totally inappropriate imo.

another poster said:

good old hard working nationals of this country get a discriminated against compared to some of these immigrants coming to this country.

Would you not call me a hardworking national? i was born here but am an african by origin. Also, your last comment, arent we all immigrants whether by choice or by force?

As uk citizens, when we have bad time financially or otherwise, we tend to pass the blame on to anyone else.

i am all for a people standing up and tackling issues but remember, its not what you do its the way that you do it. 😉

also, out of curiosity what does this mean?

(or any other nation bar the UK)

8)[

[kwatt]

Re: Staggering Really

I was using the examples as extremes Jeff, as I said it wasn’t aimed at any group in particular. The whole point was to highlight how virtually anyone is or can be discriminated against by the system/s if they don’t fit into a particular slot. I could just have easily used “disabled” as well or instead of the examples given.

Buton the way into the office this morning I was listening to the news on Radio Four and cought a snippet of the business news which had some chap on (I missed who it was) stating that there has been a huge increase in UK companies employing particularly Polish immigrant workers.

When quizzed on the reason he simply stated that there wasn’t enough skilled people in the UK and, from memory, quoted the usual plumbers, joiners etc.

Ethnicity, religion or disability shouldn’t matter, it shouldn’t even be asked on a form as you rightly point out and the fact that itis seems, to me at least, to infer that it does have a bearing on the result. Irrespective of the answer it shouldn’t have.

The point I was trying to make, albeit I may not have been as clear as I should have been, is that certain groups seem to get whilst others do not and I don’t consider that fair.

K.

[technics1200]

Re: Staggering Really

yes i agree with you on the last paragraph.

but the government has a plan up its sleeve imo.

[conspiracy theory]
why let so many immigrants in, namely from poland, india, iraq, japa, africa? why promote handouts and interpreters? and a so-called better life?

so they can get the ones who can afford to leave their country and after a number of years (remember, the so-called “Developing Countries” the only people who can afford this are people in good city jobs) gain control over these countries.

[/conspiracy theory]
😆

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