“Surestop” water stop cock switch.

[wanji]

Don’t know if any one here has come across this plumbing device.
It is supposed to simplify turning on and off the main water stopcock, using a simple, accessible “switch” rather than a sometimes difficult to access tap.
The switch is entirely water powered – no electricity needed.
My question; is it safe to install one of these in a rural cottage that is seldom occupied during winter? I’m concerned that the valve itself, if not the tubing to the on/off switch and the switch itself, are always full of water and might freeze. Are these rated for such low temperature use? The manufacturer doesn’t reply to emailed questions…

[electrofix]

its not a question of whether it will stand the low temp as it surely will, its more a case of will it burst with the expanding freezing water inside it

Dave

[wanji]

That’s exactly my concern. If the expanding ice “broke” the mechanism, the valve might open and flood the property. Alternately, if the Surestop valve failed closed, when residents returned there’d be no water – just a plumber’s call-out (probably to replace the Surestop with a standard stopcock).

[electrofix]

you could think about installing a small tubular heater near the stop cock. it could be stat controlled or timed. if you put a stat in the area set for 5 degrees it would only come on during cold periods

like
https://www.wearetubularheaters.co.uk/shop/tubular-heater-with-2-mtr-flex-white/

there are other suppliers this is just an example

Dave

[wanji]

Stopcock location is below trapdoor, underground. Packed around with insulation it is probably frost safe. The remote control switch must of necessity be above ground and accessible. The thin plastic water tubes to the switch, and the switch itself, will be exposed to low temperatures. Also, re electric frost heaters, it is not unusual to lose power for extended periods at this remote rural location. I couldn’t guarantee heater power would be available when needed, and there’d be no-one there to re-set breakers or call out the local electricity board..

[electrofix]

looking at the way the valve works i would say yes the extension pipes could freeze in extreme weather

also if you did fit one i would fit both with the surestop after a standard valve.

you could always think electric operation

https://www.watersavers.co.uk/water-solenoid-valves/

Dave

[wanji]

Yes, I’d considered something like these. Problem is, if ever there’s a power outage there’d be no water; winter or summer! (those valves are fail-closed, energise to open). Of course I could plumb a stopcock bypass loop – with a standard tap – but then I risk that tap not being fully closed before winter so burst pipes will ensue. I’m trying to make this installation idiot proof. Owners need to shut off incoming water feed when they vacate, then open drain cocks/taps etc to drain the system. Seems they’ve identified access to the stopcock under the trapdoor as a real problem…

[electrofix]

well if the rule is open the lowest tap till it stops then you will know its off. but you would still have standing water in the pipe unless you have a drain down cock somewhere

“Seems they’ve identified access to the stopcock under the trapdoor as a real problem..” Well you and I would identify a huge flood a much bigger problem… Mad

Dave.

[wanji]

Thanks for that, I think we’re in agreement here.

I’ve considered various “make draining easy” modifications, but don’t want to compromise the system integrity.

For example; to avoid having to open all basin taps for draining (and remembering to close them all again afterwards) I thought of fitting an air admittance valve as close to each tap inlet as possible. My hope was that as the property’s bottom drain tap is opened, drop in pipe pressure would allow air through the valve so the pipework could drain.
My concern with this – and your experience would be interesting to hear – is that sitting empty for a few months having started off wet, and being in a VERY hard water area, the admittance-valve seat would soon become scaled and would leak when water pressure was reapplied. I’d be creating eleven new possible points of failure…

As I keep reminding the owners, completely draining down a normal house is not trivial. That said, following a simple set of instructions, in the correct order, will always work!

[electrofix]

try as you might you will not get all the water out from everywhere all your trying to do is give the remaining water room to expand to stop damage. Have seen washing machine valves split because of this

dont forget you dont need a lot of heat to stop thing freezing, the properties of water means it has to get to 0 degrees and then lose more heat to be able to freeze. it takes approx 100w of power for an hour to turn 0 degrees water to 1Kg ice. what this means is all you have to do is keep the temp around 0.5 degrees and things will never freeze

dave

[wanji]

Minus 10 degrees for three weeks will do it! 🙁
Oh, another thing I don’t like about the Surestop is the way it opens and closes with a bang. Having emptied the pipework at the end of last occupation, I fear the shock of suddenly hitting everything with over 6 bar of pressure next spring will “stress” pipework and fittings* somewhat. Opening a manual stopcock (not ballvalve) is an altogether more gentle way to restore system pressure. *There will be a couple of WC ballvalves that might take the hit first – assuming the cisterns were flushed as required before last vacating.
On the subject of washing machines; that’s something else I keep advising against at this location. I’ve never been able to completely drain down a washing machine (without standing it upside down and blowing air through it!), there’s always water left in the sump or heater loop somewhere. In this property that water will freeze.

[electrofix]

most machines have a filter you can remove and if you take off the water pipe that shouldbe enough to give the water somewhere to expand to

has this place got dishwashers ?

Dave

[wanji]

I might be able and willing to remove a filter and disconnect a water pipe, but remember the owner has a problem with simply turning off a stopcock…

No dishwashers, this is a very “characterful” ancient cottage, around 250 years old.

Thanks for the suggestion(s) though, keep ’em coming! I’m trying to maintain a very open mind on solutions. Even the expensive option of simply keeping the entire cottage above freezing point all year round is stymied by the untrustworthy mains supply.

[electrofix]

only other thing i can think of is solar but thats quite an outlay and has to be done in a pleasing manner

if you can get a couple of Kw during the day then it should get through the night

its not an easy problem with no easy solution

only other thing i found was this

https://www.waterdamagedefense.com/collections/flow-rate-based-water-leak-detectors-shut-off-valve

Dave

[wanji]

Maybe a little job for the long winter (lockdown) nights; I’ll design an Arduino-based automated controller for shutdown and startup. If I use 12V DC water valves the whole setup could run from a 12V leisure battery, charged from the mains when it’s available. During the long winter shutdown there would only be one (master drain) valve and the Arduino taking power; maybe a small photovoltaic will keep the battery topped up during a power outage, though always-on 12V solenoids will probably draw a fair bit of current. Yes I know that in a deep freeze the battery will not be very efficient, but when the mains is present the trickle charge might just keep it warm…
After all that, if any of the air-admittance valves or motorised drain valves become scaled I foresee lots of damp patches.
Thanks again for your suggestions, I’ll let you know if I ever find a solution.
Cheers

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