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Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
my take on ordering multiple parts is ..
if engineer had these parts as van stock – there would be no need to order them
he,s probably ordering them just in case he fits the main component and finds a secondary fault. -this does happen a lot with the cheaper electronic appliances ,
customers also wont necessary log correct fault and normally wait until engineer is on site to mention other faults – ie door seal has a small hole etc.
we find customers will ignore small problems if the appliance still works – and only phone when it dies, reporting the most recent fault.
i know its not possible to carry van stock for everything , but manufacturers maybe need to explore it all the multiple parts ordering must cost them a lot more than a van stock?
ordering multiple parts
= customer thinks appliance is a pile offf
+ lots of spares charged back to manu ..
+ lots of unwanted spares ending up in bucketvan stock = initial outlay to manu /agent
= engineer uses only the parts required
= no multiple parts ordersthe other side of ordering multi parts is that the agent/engineer wants a 1st fix or at least 2 time fix.
my view comes from being a agent/engineer so i suppose im biased towards engineer,
i would probably feel very differently if i was looking at it from a manufacturers point of view.
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
I’ve worked for several major brands and one thing that was equal amongst them all was the performance figures.
There always was a few engineers that would finish each month high in the {e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} completed with very few parts used compared to the rest of the teams.
And not one Manager or Director ever took the time to find out why, the reason was that they knew the guys where playing the system and it was accepted as it helped keep the averages up enough so that higher up the food chain would not notice.
As for qualifications our industry can only begin to be taken seriously once the work force is “Qualified”, but there is a little secret with this, qualified staff equates to higher wage demands.
A typical “Engineer” would earn in excess of £30,000 basic in most fields.
How many guys on here feel qualified enough to become a design engineer for say Bosch, enter the graduate program and you could earn £25,000 in your first yr as a student.
They say “pay peanuts you get monkeys”.
Appropriate for our industry.
Lesson 3 for the brands.
Either put up & shut up or change it. :rolls:
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
Sorry Lee, that’s horsesh1t.
You can find degree students to flip burgers in Burger Ming for buttons. Are you saying they should be paid more because they spent the years getting the “qualifications”?
Go tell the thousands of “qualified but unemployed” that they’re worth that.
Or the many managers that have a business degree or qualification, that made them better managers did it?
Sorry, you’re in cloud cuckoo land with that one.
K.
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
kwatt wrote:Sorry Lee, that’s horsesh1t.
You can find degree students to flip burgers in Burger Ming for buttons. Are you saying they should be paid more because they spent the years getting the “qualifications”?
Nobody owes anybody a job, wages are paid inline with qualifications, maybe horse s888t to you, but that is a fact of life.
Go tell the thousands of “qualified but unemployed” that they’re worth that.
You can only fit so many cookies in a jar.
Sorry, you’re in cloud cuckoo land with that one.
K.
Lets hope that next time you fly away on holiday your pilot is paid more than your trolley dolly. :rotfl:
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
Actually you are incorrect Lee.
This is Economics 101. It’s simple supply and demand.
Where there is more skilled labour available or, there is a glut of roles the salaries decrease for those able to carry out the function.
Similarly, when there is a high demand or competition for the positions but a low pool of labour, the salaries and rewards are increased to attract the better candidates.
Qualification has little to do with it most of the time unless the qualification is a pre-requist, usually through legislative requirement such as doctors, solicitors and so on.
Case in point, your airline pilots.
There are a bunch of people out there that do that job just because they want to, the love of flying or whatever. But, in recent times, there have been airline pilots on salaries so low (especially in the USA) that have been claiming food stamps and other benefits because the salaries are so low.
Just because there’s some for of certification in place does not and, never will, guarantee better quality staff or that they will be rewarded in the manner you allude to.
You also appear to contradict your own argument with the “cookies in the jar” statement.
If there were too many appliance repair guys out there then the labour rate or average salaries would be low as there are so many candidates available to do the work.
Conversely, if you introduced mandatory certification, as has happened in the gas arena, the volume of available candidates drops and that forces the rates upwards.
I doubt very much that manufacturers would openly embrace the idea of mandatory training and a legal requirement for certification as it would increase their costs, very probably quite considerably.
Then you have the problem of policing it. How do you propose that’s done?
I’ll tell you how it would have to be done, as there’s no funding going to be available from government anytime soon, you’d have to fund it out the industry and create a body similar to Gas Safe or CORGI licensed through the HSE costing millions a year. Those millions would have to be found from within the industry, taken from the repairers who are now getting a higher rate, but then lose it again on the other hand.
So, in short, the whole idea and notion of some form of mandatory certification is a sham that, in the end, would accomplish nothing other than to make people feel better, create a bucketload of red tape and feed millions into an organisation nobody needs or wants.
Next time you hop on a plane though, just think that you may very well be getting paid more than the guy steering the bomb you’re sitting in. And, you don’t even have to jump through the hurdles he had to.
K.
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
kwatt wrote:
Conversely, if you introduced mandatory certification, as has happened in the gas arena, the volume of available candidates drops and that forces the rates upwards.
Quality also increases and the amount of muppets reduce.
Glad you got my point.
Which as your comments prove the industry should either put up and shut up or change it.
Anything is possible, but I’ve heard this argument laughed out of so many meetings it will always be battered down.
Why, because its wildly accepted within management etc etc that you don’t require more than monkeys to fix an appliance.
I fear though pressuring the less fortunate members on the ladder of life will continue, staff will turnover and clients will continue to get poor appliances and service.
As for the plane scenario, I’d bet you a bucket of money that no matter how many pilots there are they’d be paid more than the Trolley Dolly.
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
Martin wrote:
From those that drill great holes in the back of washing machine cabinets in order to access the motor bolts.
Oh for Chris’ sake!
About six years ago I drilled one eight millimetre hole in the back of a Bosch in order to be able to get my 1/4″ drive extension bar through and directly access the less accessible motor bolt with much less risk of personal injury. The technique worked a treat, was done with the total agreement of the customer, and I would do it again if I found a similarly tight installation.
The only part of that which equates to being a muppet is that I subsequently wrote about it in the TTE forum and suffered the kind of playground abuse some of you are giving each other here.
I have never worked for a WP nor for a manufacturer and I don’t ever want to get involved with any of that sh**.
I did think of attending a meeting once. But happily the travel involved dissuaded me.
Mike.Re: Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
leavemetogetonwithit wrote:Oh for Chris’ sake!
Let me first off apologise to you for bringing that up Mike. Totally out of context toward this thread anyway as it happens. The topic has turned into a debate more directed toward established skillsets and management deficiencies within the trade. And apparently US commercial pilots being reliant on foodstamps to make ends meet would perhaps explain why Delta Airlines flights are always delayed through lack of flight crew.
All good stuff.8-)
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
funkyboogy wrote: i would probably feel very differently if i was looking at it from a manufacturers point of view.
Exactly.
In days gone by things were a tad easier.
You could see components that were blown, you could easily test a thermostat, a heater and so on. But now, well you need to know about resistances, Ohm’s Law, how components react in use and so on. And, worst of all, with the new fangled electronics stuff you can’t see what’s failed, you actually have to use the grey matter and work it out.
So some people seem to guess at it rather than testing. It’s easier, faster and the cost of throwing bits at it is someone else’s problem.
Trouble is, a lot of the time the guessing game (parts bingo) involves taking a bunch of parts and swapping them out until it works again. Hopefully.
Does that make anyone that does this any better than half the muppets we see from the public that do likewise?
But it appears a number of people think that’s okay, the manufacturer or warranty company picks up the tab and heh, if they write it off (in some cases hopefully so) then that’s okay too. No harm, no foul as no-one was injured and the cost of it just vanishes into the ether.
What I’m saying to you is, what if that isn’t the case? What if this stuff is begin monitored?
It’s really not that difficult to do you know.
On the other hand, we have a massive range of products to deal with, lack of technical support and a myriad of other issues from the other side of the fence.
The irony of this is that, in a good many cases OEM service slags off the small micro and one man businesses and yet they are the very ones that show a tendency to diagnose and repair better. They have more time and they are way, way more motivated as if they don’t fix it, they don’t get paid and they don’t get recommended.
Yet some tend look down their noses at these guys.
Something not right in that IMO.
K.
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
kwatt wrote:
But it appears a number of people think that’s okay, the manufacturer or warranty company picks up the tab and heh, if they write it off (in some cases hopefully so) then that’s okay too. No harm, no foul as no-one was injured and the cost of it just vanishes into the ether.
What I’m saying to you is, what if that isn’t the case? What if this stuff is begin monitored?
Well, if it wasn’t for a few “muppets” like that the cost of warranties could come down a bit and it would make it harder for us self-employeds to compete 🙂 . So I’m all for properly skilled and motivated engineers moving into other trades or join the self-employed!
Mike.Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
another way to bring down cost per job would be for wps and manufacturer’s to make it easier to return parts. most of them are very time consuming and far to complex ,
if your a 1 man band and having to deal with being out on the road all day – the last thing you would want to do is spend another 2-3 hours on returning parts etc .
.. (before anyone starts we have office staff who are good at returning spares)
surely the wps and manufacturer’s must know that not all parts are required – why would they have cost per job ?
.. when i worked at comet the parts store would not take back anything that had previously been ordered .. i really got my eyes opened when in my 1st week i took back a £300 module that someone had ordered – needless to say it wasnt needed , the store man just laughed at me when i tried to return it .. i was told to keep it or put in the bucket.
i dont know how it all works with all the manufacturers but it strikes me as
1 they dont want parts back as restocking is more work /staff
2 there isnt a easy way of doing it – re credits etcally
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
kwatt wrote:
Exactly.
In days gone by things were a tad easier.
Not really, I hated those Hoover crouzet timers.
You could see components that were blown, you could easily test a thermostat, a heater and so on. But now, well you need to know about resistances, Ohm’s Law, how components react in use and so on. And, worst of all, with the new fangled electronics stuff you can’t see what’s failed, you actually have to use the grey matter and work it out.
Have you lost the plot :rotfl:
Your blaming the engineers for parts bingo whilst admitting today its much harder to diagnose. :rolls:
That’s hardly an Technicians fault and something the industry is to blame for.
But it appears a number of people think that’s okay, the manufacturer or warranty company picks up the tab and heh, if they write it off (in some cases hopefully so) then that’s okay too. No harm, no foul as no-one was injured and the cost of it just vanishes into the ether.
They produce the products.
What I’m saying to you is, what if that isn’t the case? What if this stuff is begin monitored?
It’s really not that difficult to do you know.
Has been for a while, I’ve been involved now some 2 yrs, see previous posts about JTM, I don’t work for a brand or a WP.
Any brand Tech is well aware by their Managers and monthly performance figures.
Brands I work for are also not happy paying WP’s people to represent them and not do an equal standard of work.
On the other hand, we have a massive range of products to deal with, lack of technical support and a myriad of other issues from the other side of the fence.
Means nothing if the person involved in the repair has no formal qualifications.
The irony of this is that, in a good many cases OEM service slags off the small micro and one man businesses and yet they are the very ones that show a tendency to diagnose and repair better. They have more time and they are way, way more motivated as if they don’t fix it, they don’t get paid and they don’t get recommended.
Since the crisis there has become a noticeable increase in Ex technicians becoming self employed and contacting WP’s, then there going out to fix unfamiliar appliances without much success, brands I work for are noticing a large increase in client dissatisfaction, recalls and basically the hassle to which you’ve pointed out.
In my opinion we need not a regulatory body, but self regulation to run with formal recognized qualifications, such as City & Guilds or NVQ.
That way no WP or brand could employ a person without this qualification, lets get back to Brands running Apprenticeships and having everybody with the same skill sets from the beginning.
I cant believe that you cannot understand that a persons ability is directly affected by there qualifications and that parts bingo is a direct result of people not being educated to a level required to do the job.
I would love to see and I’m sure I’ll get shouted at, but our industry the brands should employ 90{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} or more of the field staff, WP’s should be binned completely and any outside work should be vetted and controlled by the brands themselves.
If Mr Smith wants that work then he should be vetted and controlled, if he wants to work independent there is no way to stop him, but at least he won’t represent the brands and any parts bingo is then his/her financial responsibility within there business.
Understanding electronic principles, Ohmns law are all fundamental basics, a person who has not ever studied Ohmns law, electronics etc and there are lots in our industry will never get beyond parts bingo no matter how much grey matter they use.
Then you have to figure in the guys work loads, nobody will travel 300 miles, do 8 calls and complete 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} everyday, nobody is going to be happy working long hours everyday. There basically being forced to either lie or cheat so that the last call at 6pm is not going to be another 1 hour on top repairing an appliance that is time consuming to get into to retrieve that piece of glass from the circulation pump, which should by now be understood by the brands to be easier, not more difficult as lets face it its nothing new. No they prefer to stretch out the pressure and if he doesn’t like it there are plenty more suckers to choose from.
But hey the brands are not going to move production costs over Engineers overtime as the Tech probably isn’t being paid overtime, the culture of who gives a crap about the Tech is alive and kicking.
In the current climate they cannot jump ship so oftern as most brands are taking the p88, so the only other options are to either quit the industry or more likely become self employed and hope they can make money.
The later is going to be less of an option once the WP’s are brought into line.
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
one course that at least the manufacturer should put engineers on is … how to meet customer expectations of purchased product . it all very well saying don’t rubbish the product , and im sure most agents worth their salt don’t and have learned what to say and what not to say.
but lets have the official line – what do the manufacturers recommend you say ..
is their any official statement.
ally
Re: The Most Stupid Things Engineers Say
“Its value for money”
“The product contains non serviceable components that require replacement when they come to the end of their serviceable life span, sometimes that requires early intervention if used outside of there designed tolerances”.
“Your old Neff may have had metal dials, but this product is designed with current EU waste requirements that dictate the use of components, plus your old Neff retailed at £1300 and this one you purchased for £500 you cheap f8888”.
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