Trade Bible

[kwatt]

All the time I get asked about what to charge, what contract rates are good, bad or indifferent, which contracts are worth the bother and which aren’t, where to get spares, where not to, what parts are needed, what aren’t what tools are good to have, which to avoid and on and on it goes…

Do you think that we could build a knowledge base of these things to help members so that at least if people join the TA they can share our collective wisdom?

(For “wisdom” read, what we’ve learned from being kicked in the teeth so often and yes, I am being polite ;))

It would be of huge use to new people not only to the trade but also those new to working for themselves.

K.

[Lawrence]

Re: Trade Bible

Didn’t Ade mention a similar thing with regard to contracts ?
I am all for it ,as I think between us we have been shafted,turned over,lied to ,had money withheld from the same people ,and probably made the same errors of judgement as each other and know all the names to avoid .
Why not have in a download –

The contract calculator
Reputable spares suppliers
Contracts to avoid
Small business rules and regs (may be a download on HM Revenue website )
What to do and what not to do when running a small business
The pros and cons of VAT reg

will that do for starters
Now if you could create it all as a PDF in colour with images etc that would be really cool 8)
Lawrence

[kwatt]

It is doable.

K.

[iadom]

Re: Trade Bible

Sounds like a very good idea to me, never done contract work, escaped from the vatmans clutches 3 years ago, happy to help in any small way that I can.

Jim.

[kwatt]

Re: Trade Bible

A short section about the pros and cons of VAT registration would actually be good Jim. Obviously for contract and letting agents etc. VAT registered is easier for them to deal with is the only thing I’d say on it, can’t comment much further as I’ve never been non-VAT registered. 😕

K.

[iadom]

Re: Trade Bible

Other than being able to claim the vat back on a van ( always used an estate car) I cannot think of any pros for the single, one man operation such as mine as far as vat is concerned.

At least not since the turnover threshold was raised to a sensible level.

I will give it some thought. 🙂

Jim.

[Martin]

Re: Trade Bible

kwatt wrote:(For “wisdom” read, what we’ve learned from being kicked in the teeth so often and yes, I am being polite ;))

This is what I like to hear, nice one Ken, polite is the way forward allowing all aspects and attitudes into the fray. Democracy in a true sense, brilliant!

Well, well, that being realised I simply couldn’t pass up making a comment or three on this subject now could I?…It would be truly remiss of me at least to lend a hand on this one. 😉

kwatt wrote:All the time I get asked about what to charge, what contract rates are good, bad or indifferent, which contracts are worth the bother and which aren’t, where to get spares, where not to, what parts are needed, what aren’t what tools are good to have, which to avoid and on and on it goes…

I’m sure it’s natural that for all that join in the trade forums to ask questions of this nature, I’ve done it many a time I know, we all have at some time or another. A kind of group in which to compare notes, so to speak….”What do you reckon?…..What’s the best work providers in town?…Where’s the best wholesalers?…etc, the list can be endless I guess?

And it is true to say that over the years UKW and it’s members have spread thick a whole lot of advice in that regard whether it be good, bad or indifferent? And it is also true to say that one man’s meat is another man’s poison. What works great for some ain’t worth a light or even worth getting out of bed for others. Nevertheless the options are laid bare for all to see, take it or leave it kind of thing really…I’m sure you’ll agree so far…yes?:?

Now, for The Whitegoods Trade Association to publish a (so called?) Trade Bible (not sure if that would be the Old or New Testament at this stage?) I’m suggesting to you is a BAD thing to do 👿

A so called “knowledge base” all well and good shared with members, fine, but in private with individuals on a nudge, nudge, wink, wink basis then OK. But for a so called TA to encompass the entire trade and in so doing publish what could be libellous propaganda is not an option.

Advising one person over VAT registration is a subject dear to my heart I must admit. I’ve ranted on that subject many a while. Now it is without doubt that in business the law stands and at a certain income level one has to be VAT registered like it or not. And again it’s not a subject the WTA should pass comment on, certainly not in the written form as is being suggested?

I propose that the WTA Council add this subject to their next meeting agenda. I further suggest it stick to rational law permitting advice and comment, offer guidance but purely in a legal sense and without any form of bias. As by definition any TA has to comply fully to the wide ranging and stringent rules of the OFT (or whatever Government department controls them these days?)

Let UKW publish a Trade Bible (sic) if it so wishes, but not the WTA….please?

Just my personal opinion of course.

🙂

[Lawrence]

Re: Trade Bible

Martin wrote:I simply couldn’t pass up making a comment or three on this subject now could I?…It would be truly remiss of me at least to lend a hand on this one….

Now why am I not surprised 😆

Martin wrote:I’m sure it’s natural that for all that join in the trade forums to ask questions of this nature, I’ve done it many a time I know, we all have at some time or another. A kind of group in which to compare notes, so to speak….”What do you reckon?…..What’s the best work providers in town?…Where’s the best wholesalers?…etc, the list can be endless I guess?…

Agreed

Martin wrote:And it is true to say that over the years UKW and it’s members have spread thick a whole lot of advice in that regard whether it be good, bad or indifferent? And it is also true to say that one man’s meat is another man’s poison. What works great for some ain’t worth a light or even worth getting out of bed for others. Nevertheless the options are laid bare for all to see, take it or leave it kind of thing really…I’m sure you’ll agree so far…yes?

Yes… but I sense something looming on the horizon…….

Martin wrote: Now, for The Whitegoods Trade Association to publish a (so called?) Trade Bible (not sure if that would be the Old or New Testament at this stage?) I’m suggesting to you is a BAD thing to do 👿

Here it is .. Martin disagreeing with something ,surprise ,surprise or not as the case may be .

Martin wrote: A so called “knowledge base” all well and good shared with members, fine, but in private with individuals on a nudge, nudge, wink, wink basis then OK. But for a so called TA to encompass the entire trade and in so doing publish what could be libellous propaganda is not an option.

I’m confused Martin ,please explain to me what is wrong with the WTA helping it’s members by pointing out the Pros and Cons that can be unique to our Industry.

Martin wrote:Advising one person over VAT registration is a subject dear to my heart I must admit. I’ve ranted on that subject many a while. Now it is without doubt that in business the law stands and at a certain income level one has to be VAT registered like it or not. And again it’s not a subject the WTA should pass comment on, certainly not in the written form as is being suggested?.

The only written form would be a link to the website for HM Customs & Excise ,then it is up to individuals to make there own minds up in conjunction with there accountant

Martin wrote:I propose that the WTA Council add this subject to their next meeting agenda. I further suggest it stick to rational law permitting advice and comment, offer guidance but purely in a legal sense and without any form of bias. As by definition any TA has to comply fully to the wide ranging and stringent rules of the OFT (or whatever Government department controls them these days?)?.

Proposal taken & I will post it on the WTA council Forum as we don’t need a physical meeting to discuss the merits of what is being suggested,I will let you know the outcome

Lawrence

[Martin]

Re: Trade Bible

I appreciate you’re replying to my post Lawrence and here’s a couple of points to clear things up for you if I may? : –

Point 1).

Martin wrote:But for a so called TA to encompass the entire trade and in so doing publish what could be libellous propaganda is not an option.

Lawrence wrote:I’m confused Martin ,please explain to me what is wrong with the WTA helping it’s members by pointing out the Pros and Cons that can be unique to our Industry.

I suspect you missed my suggesting the idea of publishing a “Trade Bible” on behalf of the WTA could be possibly be libellous?

…and Point 2).

Lawrence wrote:The only written form would be a link to the website for HM Customs & Excise ,then it is up to individuals to make there own minds up in conjunction with there accountant

The ruling on VAT through H.M. Customs & Excise is fully documented. WTA members are’nt in a position to choose regarding whether or not to register. There’s no “pro’s & con’s” on this issue only facts.

Lawrence wrote:Proposal taken & I will post it on the WTA council Forum as we don’t need a physical meeting to discuss the merits of what is being suggested,I will let you know the outcome

Excellent Lawrence, thanks! :tup:

[iadom]

Re: Trade Bible

Martin wrote:

The ruling on VAT through H.M. Customs & Excise is fully documented. WTA members are’nt in a position to choose regarding whether or not to register. There’s no “pro’s & con’s” on this issue only facts.

Incorrect, whilst any business with a turnover in excess of £67,000 must be vat registered, businesses with turnover of less than the threshold may, if they so wish become vat registered, god knows why they would want to in our trade but there are variables within the system.

So there are pros & cons. 🙂

Jim.

[Martin]

Re: Trade Bible

iadom wrote:Incorrect, whilst any business with a turnover in excess of £67,000 must be vat registered, businesses with turnover of less than the threshold may, if they so wish become vat registered, god knows why they would want to in our trade but there are variables within the system.

Ah! Yes Jim, I take your point, sorry, apologies all round if need be. 😳

I forgot there are some that may choose registering under the current threshold as is. But like you, I cannot imagine why anyone in their position would?

Martin

[kwatt]

Re: Trade Bible

Sorry Martin but I think you’re creating a storm in a teacup where there is absolutely no need for one.

What’s libellous? You’re jumping to a conclusion before you have any fact to base it on and, for anything to be considered libellous in any event, it has to be proven to be untrue. So long as anything published is true and accurate or as an opinion then there’s no problem.

TBH if you went down that path I should be getting sued about once a month for shooting my gob off but I’m still here.:waving:

We have a legal system in this country that actually does allow people to express an opinion and tell the truth, even if others might not like it.

As to VAT registration, you can become VAT registered with a turnover under the threshhold, I know, I did it. If you can prove to the VAT Office that you have a requirement or are liable to trade above that threshhold in time then they will issue our business a VAT number. You should, I think, be aware of this as did your turnover not drop back to below the VAT threshhold and you had to de-VAT yourself?

However I do consider it the place of a TA to try to inform and encourage new blood into the industry as well as to inform and help those already in it of general trade opinion and events. I kinda always thought that was the point of it all, not merely to not bother because it might be difficult or pose some sort of perceived risk that, in this instance seems so remote a possibility.

K.

[iadom]

Re: Trade Bible

Deregistering for vat if you fall below the threshold is not compulsory, but anyone with a reasonable turnover below the threshold, making a decent profit on their work would be mad not to deregister.

Jim.

[kwatt]

Re: Trade Bible

Yes, I had thought that was the case but I wasn’t entirely sure.

But, for people wanting to do contract work with a turnover that is below the threshhold, it may be advantageous to retain the VAT registration as it simplifies a lot of things. Not always the case I would think but there could be a call for it.

The point is to explain it and educate IMO as we should/do know better than a noobie. 😉

K.

[Martin]

Re: Trade Bible

kwatt wrote:However I do consider it the place of a TA to try to inform and encourage new blood into the industry as well as to inform and help those already in it of general trade opinion and events. I kinda always thought that was the point of it all, not merely to not bother because it might be difficult or pose some sort of perceived risk that, in this instance seems so remote a possibility.

As always Ken I respect and admire your continued optimism over the trade and it’s future. It’s hard to accept I know but I too share some of your concerns and aspirations, always have done my friend. It’s hard to not have been in the trade as long as I and not have feelings you know?

And in that regard I feel it necessary to defend certain aspects of this our trade by providing a subjective, alternative and , as is so often the case lately, opposing viewpoint from within. 😉

Without such I feel certain some may fall headlong willy nilly almost into something that is beyond their control. And in their over-riding enthusiasm to right all the wrongs of the trade, will stuff it up for many with their ‘good intentions’. (I could write a book on the subject with stuff that’s gone by in the last 3 or 4 years :rolls:)

But there you go, if I were younger and had more time perhaps I could have stuck my hand up to join the TA Council and got more involved as it were. But as it happens I feel it my place to at least lend the odd comment or two in that direction in the fervent hope some of it will land on fertile soil?

In the other Bible God created heaven and earth in 6 days, apparently? Many swear by it to this day, others, like me take a more subjective view. I await the publication of the WTA Bible to make my own mind up. 🙂

Regards

Martin

[Author]

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