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I am a regular reader of this column but this is the first time in responding to any topics.
I do however have some serious concerns regarding some comments in the RC compensation topic.
Firstly can I say that I in no way condone the action in this instance repair care or any work provider for the way in which this action was taken on the compensation issue and as I only have one side of the argument I cannot comment on the case. I do believe that any agreed compensation should be exactly that AGREED.
All of us have at one time or another failed to repair a product for whatever reason, but if this is the case why should we be paid for it, either by a work provider or customer? I’m sure that if your vans developed a fault and a garage failed to repair it you would want your money back to allow you to have it repaired by another garage?
You would not expect the garage who failed the repair to then charge you for some parts on any subsequent repairs to make up for the loss? NO! I did not think so.
Comments like “If they keep up that practice, then surely hacked off repairers will book out a motor or something to mitigate the loss.” do not help anybody in this trade, manufacturers, work providers Service companies or the customer’s perception of our trade. There is a simple word for this THEFT!
I have been a service agent for work providers and provided work to them. The most frustrating thing I find with the trade as a whole is the Them and us attitude of both sides. We are in the same industry!
I cannot comment on individual rates for repaircare or any other work provider but the fact is this:-
All work providers tender for any work they provide part of this tender is the rate paid to them as a business and part, the proportion of this rate passed to the repairer. Nobody from any work provider has ever held a gun to an independent technician and said you will work for us! This is your choice, and as such, for you as an individual business to decide if the rate offered suits your business or not. It is not an agreement to do the work at a loss and gain profit by stealing parts elsewhere.
Once the contract commences it is the overall cost of repair (parts and labour) that is important to the work supplier (not the work provider) not just the call out rate. The use of spare parts is an accepted cost. What any contract company such as repaircare is judged on is the average repair cost. Rates that reflect the parts used on any specific product and in turn the rates that make the product viable to sell in the first place. Stealing parts is no help to anybody! Least of all, the independent repairers who rely on reputation and the reputation of the industry as a whole for their work. The majority of customers dread the thought of being ripped off so much they will replace rather than risk high repair costs once an appliance is out of warranty.
I believe the vast majority of us want to earn an honest living without either being screwed or screwing anybody else.
Why do the honest repairers all get tarred with the same brush by work providers? Please read some comments on this site from time to time and you might see why.
The dishonest ones amongst us will no doubt complain about the BIG BAD manufacturers and BIG BAD work providers ripping us off in comments on this site but think nothing of ripping people off.
The honest ones amongst us accept we are not perfect and deal with our complaints in an honest and fair basis on a case by case basis, all that should be expected is that we are treated fairly. It is a shame that dishonesty of others is reflected onto their industry.
Rant over……
Re: Trade Honesty
Hi ben–nevis
I agree with what you say, 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}! Why should Manufacturers / Insurance companies get ripped off? It aint right, it aint clever and only leads to a Business that has to rely on fraudulent claims to continue trading!
However, the point about the gun, and being forced to do the work, I have a different take on that!
Most agents that are with Repaircare, signed up a long time ago. When rates were reasonable and terms were acceptable. Call volumes increase, demands on repairers increase, so the repairer recruits, and / or invests in to growing the Business to maintain a good service level. Wage bills go up, van bills go up, phone bills go up, everything is increased to again, provide & maintain a good level of service, both to the WP and customer. Then……..
We have a recall change, a while ago, from 28day ‘Repair’ guarantee, to 28day ‘Whole Appliance’ guarantee. Ok, so that’s taken on the chin reluctantly by most. Then………
We have the rate drop. (This is where the ‘Gun’ bit gets to me). We are faced with either accepting the DSG rates, or lose ALL Repaircare work. That to me is a kinda gun to head move taking in to account the investment made as per above. That is NOT giving the repairer the choice of doing the work or not in an acceptable manor! That is, forcing repairers to accept the cuts, or decline and make people redundant (Which anyone with half a heart will avoid at ALL costs). I think it is a FACT, (and I ask anyone that disagrees with me here, to speak up) if Repaircare were minus the ‘Prime’ contracts, and was soley DSG, at the new rates, most would have declined the rates.
Now, I chose to speak out, and my view is this, and it’s simple! Lose the ‘Losses’ on this DSG work, and it might, MIGHT be workable for a short period of time (Definately NOT long term), but short term, maybe. The losses include out calls (Loss of income), Whole appliance recalls (Loss of income) and BER rates due to DSG’s time constraints and part shortages (Again, loss of income). BUT ben, by speaking out, people may fear the loss of work, to a 2nd tier agent that’s trying week by week to get your work, or even by someone new, and again, given the investments most people make to ensure the provision of a good service is maintained, this is not an option! So, you maybe now can understand why someone might say ‘Sod it, its only a regas here, a pump there’, it’s not greed, it’s a matter of survival to some!
Fact is ben, although wrong, it does go on. Anyone who says it doesn’t is to be blunt, a bit naive! It isn’t right, especially when other manufacturers / Insurance companies end up paying for DSG rate cuts, but FACT is… If repairers were paid a good rate for a good job with good terms, the only people who would ‘Cheat’ are the greedy ones, and they’d get weeded out in no time!
My, rant over!
Adrian.
Re: Trade Honesty
Whilst I totally agree with the vast majority of comments above, you have not taken into consideration the variables that quite often rear their heads on calls. Let us take the case of an engineer going out to an appliance that the work provider has not supplied training on but has a technical team that is supposed to supply technical expertise. Engineer turns up and has not the slightest idea what the fault is – he contacts the tech team who suggest changing this or that part. Engineer orders and subsequently changes part to find that this does not clear the fault. Who is at fault here, the engineer or work provider tech team – what is obvious is that the engineer after two calls is out of pocket on both time wasted and parts which he cannot return but has to pay for. At this point the only cost to the work provider is an opinion (wrong or otherwise) and passing the call, they have already made a profit on the parts. The problem to repair the appliance still rests with the repairer and it is his reputation that is tarnished not that of the work provider.
Finally, how can a work provider company without recourse to its engineer network recover say £100 from this company when they only pay them £35 for the call
Stealing parts is just fraud and I totally agree with you that those doing it should be forced out of this business – those checking the stats can see quite clearly where an overuse of parts arises and should question the repairer about this. Equally, they should be able to see where parts supply companies are overcharging on the parts they supply to repairers.
I echo your point that we should acknowledge that we are not perfect but equally we do not get fairly treated in many cases either.Counter point finished 😉
Re: Trade Honesty
I agree with most of the above.
For me the important thing is honesty works BOTH ways, and in this case, from what I have read only, I don’t think RC behaved honestly.
Regards to all
Jackal
Re: Trade Honesty
I fully agree with the posts made. As I said NO company should have the right to agree compensation on your behalf and in my opinion RC are wrong to do so! as simple as that.
I also agree that the honesty and more importantly trust between all parties in the industry is vital. Without which we generate the “us and them” which may have led to some comments.
As I said I have no first hand knowledge of the RC case and as such posted my comments as a new topic to reflect this.
As I said this is “all of our ” industry not just technicians but manufacturers, insurers, and work providers and all need to play fair.
Re: Trade Honesty
So what was the point of your first ever post then Ben? Being as you have been around since 2004 as a trade member of UKW and have “been a regular reader” and that you agree with all that has been said on the subject you raised, what ARE you trying to put over here?:con:
Honesty and fair trading principles are a prerequisite for any business to be a success. Long term business on business relationships are established mainly on those ideals anyway. The ‘two way street’ works for most and anyone brought to question that doesn’t walk that way is most likely taken out of the loop. So I ask again…what are you trying to say here…?
Is it that perhaps that ‘honesty’ plays heavily on your conscience? That we should all take a heavy loss should those that we seek advice from and act on that advice then turns out to be wrong, we take the consequences without recall?
Yes we all need to “play fair” without the need to confess our sins to the local church confessional. Please don’t for a moment suggest that the agents/repairers at the sharp end of ‘the system’ are in any way guilty of any misgivings….. 👿
Re: Trade Honesty
As I said the original post I have no comment on the point I was trying to make but appear to have failed is this:
Comments like
“If they keep up that practice, then surely hacked off repairers will book out a motor or something to mitigate the loss.” and the practise of doing this on a trade site open to WP’s, manufacturers and techicians, is plain b***** stupid!Advicating this theft is irresponsible and gives the wrong impression of our trade.
I hope this clears things upAs for “Please don’t for a moment suggest that the agents/repairers at the sharp end of ‘the system’ are in any way guilty of any misgivings….. ” If you read the thread, that suggestion was not made by me, I merely responded to it!
Re: Trade Honesty
I beg to differ with you Ben on this as you also referred to placing a parallel using the much vented (on here.:rolls:) motor trade. A garage that failed to solve a problem then charged for spare parts….etc….mitigated loss….theft even?
I’m sorry Ben but the ‘holier than thou’ point you are trying to make is not what this business is based on. Repairers/agents can all sleep easy at night simply because they do what is asked of them and invoice their paymasters accordingly. A fair days work for a fair days pay their only demand. 👿
And as for lee8…shut it!
Re: Trade Honesty
Martin wrote:
And as for lee8…shut it!
OK. 😆
Actually I support Ben on this point, to an extent, but then again maybe we both have experience of Tom, Dick and Harry that some agents employ to cover the demand.
I’m not including Aide, he seems to be one that is responsible and I’m sure wants his business to progress and has found himself stuck in no mans land.
But there are many who don’t run their business as honest, in fact many have at least a Dick working for them.
If we reverting back to garage examples, there should be tighter controls on the ground, similar to dealerships, if you represent a brand, then that brand should have some control, regulation and a minimum working standard.
It should not be expected to be multi branded.
The client should expect the best service for their product, you should know the appliance your repairing without the aid of guess work from a technical dept that probably has very little technical knowledge of the brand.
Something is lacking in the appliance industry and its deeply flawed, at the moment Mrs Smith with the nice new appliance has no idea who the hell is going to call and chances are the tech has no idea of the appliance.
Scary when the busiest part of this site is the trade asking for help to solve problems, mainly due to the lack of back up from the brands, but also by the sheer number of appliances an agent is expected to know.
I believe it should be looked at and agents scrutinised, trained or have experience of the brands there expected to repair, the more specialised the more repairs passed.
Re: Trade Honesty
I have to say in common with Martin, I was a tad intrigued Ben; where you have been for the last 6 plus years?
I think your input could have been beneficial in the past. Clearly you are not lacking in the grammar stakes, and can put your point across very clearly, and in a pertinent manner. Your reticence to date however is bleeding obvious. I see there are others who have kept their heads down for 5 or more years who have suddenly come out the woodwork. It seems this subject has brought out the best in people.
That said, don’t go away as you have made a point, and I think very clearly. You have picked up and highlighted some asides and comments hidden in postings; but not necessarily some misdemeanours.
I happen to be a repair agent for the Connect account, and in common with the other posters who have lots to say, am losing money on the DSGi side of the account.
Therefore I am mitigating these losses, but not in the way you may be thinking. In the past we had the philosophy that we would only repair the described fault, and would encourage the consumer that if there was another problem to call Coverplan in a couple of month’s time.
Now we have turned it on its head. As we lose money on every one of these calls, we endeavour to remove the risk of another visit. Meaning, if there is something in the pump, we replace the pump, at the same time check the brushes door seal etc and if on the van we replace those as well. Likewise on a P.C.B. controlled fridge/freezer. Change both the board & sensors, fix in one hit. Therefore saving I hope a return call.
Now you can see where this is going I’m sure.
The spares spend on my account will no doubt increase, as we will fall into the trap of artificially raising the liability to the underwriter of the insurance. Give it time, will go full circle and the cost will escalate and once again the bean counters will be looking to screw the cost down yet further.
I say, give us the due reward to actually fix the fault, not throw parts at it in order to keep costs down.
Lee 8. What are you on? You have polluted one thread where you were clearly out of your depth, and now you keep popping up in this one. I’m not one to keep having a go at someone, and have tried to avoid becoming personal, but you’re getting tiresome, and clearly this subject is out of your domain.
Alex
Re: Trade Honesty
as an agent for repaircare as well as a few others can anybody say we as agents have been treated fair by repaircare . they have reduced our pay rates reduced our calls increased our spares cost have made agreements with manufacturers and insureance companys beond the origanial contracts and yet we are supposed to play fair . we are lied to ,cheated on and they even rob from us ( invoices charged back 6 months later beacuse the serial number dosent work on their system) in 30 years i have never overcharged or fitted parts that was not needed to any of my customers but to hell with repaircare i will not run my company into the ground to support the lavish lifestyle of their directors it works both ways
Re: Trade Honesty
Stop asking about the lack of posts please, some people just read and decide to chip in when they feel the need and that’s absolutely fine. And, it’s nice to read such well written posts with great subject matter that is not just a bun fight.
To be honest (:)), I actually don’t mind seeing people do well, it’s fair enough if you work for it and don’t do it through detriment to others. But that’s just my simplistic view. A lot of people work really, really hard for the rewards they get, I know several on this forum that fit that bill.
I also can’t comment on how you guys feel about the RC/DSG thing as I’m unaffected really. I can tell you how I would feel if I were involved given what I can see but that would be unfair to RC.
What I can understand completely, having been in similar situations in the past, is that if you have employed staff that you have to pay then you may often be forced down a path you don’t want to take to survive. It’s got nothing to do with what is right or wrong if you are aggrieved by the client to the point where you have to. Of course, it should never reach that stage as you should be able to work out some sort of solution if the work isn’t profitable but, many of us know only too well that this simply isn’t the reality in most cases. What you get is an intransigent client that really doesn’t care about the problem quite often and just enforces the rates, contract conditions or whatever.
So, the repairer just looks for another way to make ends meet and pay the bills.
It’s not out of malice, it’s from necessity.
On the whole though, I have to say that dealing with the ISE stuff and other bits and bobs I do, there are a lot of very honest and helpful repairers out there, the vast bulk of them. But, sadly, there are a few that are complete muppets and some that are pretty much crooks. They soon get weeded out though.
But the most important thing I’d say in relation to the topic is that it’s not so much honesty this, it’s about respect. If you respect the client and they respect you, things will be fine… if you are not treated with a little respect, well, you ain’t gonna give any.
K.
Re: Trade Honesty
Alex wrote:
Lee 8. What are you on? You have polluted one thread where you were clearly out of your depth, and now you keep popping up in this one. I’m not one to keep having a go at someone, and have tried to avoid becoming personal, but you’re getting tiresome, and clearly this subject is out of your domain.
Alex
Wine mostly, sometimes a good Malt. 🙂
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