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Last Friday I posted THIS ARTICLE in the Trade Technical forum. Within hours that same day it was elaborately edited, expanded on and then placed directly in the public self-help section of this web site, allowing yet more trade secrets to leech out into the public domain.
This is nothing new to what occurs generally throughout the information highway every second of every day. There are no secrets on the Internet, nothing is sacred, sacrosanct or copyrighted. In many ways that is regarded as a good thing overall by all walks of life, but, on the other hand it is just possible we can view this from an entirely different perspective.
It is quite obvious to even the most casual observer within the domestic appliance repair trade that business year on year is declining and there are a good number of reasons for this. One of the most striking examples is the amount of trade technical information being leeched out onto the Internet for public consumption. In effect the repair trade is slowly but surely bleeding to death as a result. Our one major advantage we had of being in the trade was that we knew how to fix it, we had the trade secrets, the technical know-how, at our finger tips.
It was long argued that only those members of the general public that choose to seek out this information would gain from such insight. That the vast majority of the public didn’t use the Internet and those that did had neither the inclination nor the ability to deal with such a wealth of information. That it was morally and wholly wrong to withhold such information in the first place. And those choosing to meter out would therefore and as a result be seen as honest, trustworthy and full of integrity.
Whilst that argument, it has to be said, may stand up well to a good deal of scrutiny it is nevertheless fundamentally flawed. Especially in the light of these recent years when business in all sectors is on the decline. Non more so than our trade in as much as that we have a situation now where far too much information is available. More and more folks stumble across this information directly or indirectly and are literally bewildered at the prospect. Discouraged into simply not bothering to get their machine fixed because they are privy to all kinds of negative information that puts them right off getting it fixed from the outset!
In the example I gave in my introduction. Let’s call it the “1 minute thing” for short. It has mystified trades folk and public alike as to what it means? Time and time again engineers have posted questions here on UKW with a problem machine doing the “1 minute thing.” So I published this article for the benefit of these bewildered souls. Complex variables simply explained to allow swift and positive diagnosis on their customer’s errant machine. That same information but seen from the general public perspective however literally compounds all those variables into one big problematic potential. The end result being, that much coined phrase “Beyond Economical Repair” is the only rational conclusion open to them. Repair lost, machine scrapped….!!!
I now very much regret the day I bothered to place that ‘Sticky’ on the forum. For giving out Trade Secrets was for me not such a good plan after all.
I wonder what your views are on the subject? What’s your take? Is there a problem here? Should the lid be lifted on all current trade secrets? What more can we divulge?
I welcome your comments as always.
Regards
Martin
Re: Trade Secrets?
as your post is on a closed forum meant to help fellow members of the trade I can understand your upset to find this information passed on for public consumption.
information like this is valuable but only if the customer rings an engineer to look at the fault in the first place. from what I can see the customers perception of a good life expectancy has reduced over the last 10 years to the point now where if its over 4 years old the dump it and buy new instead of getting it repaired
since it must be a member of this forum who passed this info on he must be made to understand that passing on clear your filter faults and the like is ok. beyond that the advise should be “its fixable but you need professional help”Dave
Re: Trade Secrets?
The closed forum for trade is or was specifically just that ‘trade’. if postings between trade members are going to be then moved over into the public domain it begs the question why not make it all open to everyone, lets not just slowly sail down the river but put a dirty great engine on the back to propel us faster!
Re: Trade Secrets?
Martin, from your experience as a former moderator surely this would have been a job for one such qualified/experienced in these matters.
Therefore I daresay that would limit the list of suspects?
Stupid question coming now…..
Would I be right is presuming you had requested from above internal means on how & why this came about, then failed to get the required answer? I could’t imagine that you would just post your concerns without prior investigation and a justifiable reason as to why this was placed in the public domain.
Alex
Trade Secrets?
Alex wrote:Would I be right is presuming you had requested from above internal means on how & why this came about, then failed to get the required answer? I could’t imagine that you would just post your concerns without prior investigation and a justifiable reason as to why this was placed in the public domain.
I would prefer this debate not to be a question of who? or for that matter why? it ended up so swiftly into the public domain but rather what is your take on this type of trade secret stuff getting there in the first place.?
Should we start making more YouTube video’s? Open up our service manual data for all to see? Why have a team of engineers when we can just sit on the computer and give step by step tuition using an 0845 phone number?…..and so on.
Do tell……. 😀
Re: Trade Secrets?
What Martin is on about, in respect to the articles are these two…
http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/fix- … -left.html
http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/fix- … inute.html
Which I wrote up for “public” consumption on a suggestion by a moderator as the question gets asked repeatedly in both trade and public forums.
But if you go hunting with Google you’ll find all that and more elsewhere on those particular problems.
What I discussed with Martin was the usual tired old argument about so-called “trade” information being in the public domain. And, to be quite honest about it, how I get painted as a big bad ogre that allows all this top, top secret information out to the public.
In the end though, as a punter you either know or can suss how to do it or you can’t. You then choose to either call in a professional to do it for you or, you buy a new machine.
In much the same manner as many of us use the internet for many other things from repairing your own central heating boiler to figuring out how to set up a local area network, people use that sort of information to try to make a choice on what they want to do.
Yet, only this morning I get sent a link to this…
http://blog.espares.co.uk/espares/2012/ … views.html
And, if you dig about you’ll see a division of a major trade supplier, the largest in the UK and one of the largest in Europe posting up stuff to YouTube like this…
http://blog.espares.co.uk/espares/2012/ … ideos.html
To which my only real comment was, get it into perspective.
As for the decline of the trade, which is a bl00dy endless debate on here please get a grip of the actual reasons, not the scapegoats that are rolled out with both predictability and a distinct whiff of boredom.
The reality is that we have to deal with the world we operate in, not the one we did many years ago or some Utopian society with controlled information that only favours certain groups. That notion is a bit too George Orwellian for my liking.
K.
Re: Trade Secrets?
A worrying development indeed particulary as this infomation was not originally offered to the public.
For those who choose not to post technical information on the public forums for safety reasons it makes you wonder how secure information is within the trade forums.Re: Trade Secrets?
Well, when you have “engineers” calling you for technical support on how to get into a tumble dryer as in, get the back off it, I gotta say, there’s a number out there that are just as dangerous, if not more so than many members of the public.
Or the ones that order up a sh1tload of parts in an attempt to get a machine written off or, the other option being, they haven’t’ a clue what they’re doing.
+++DELETED+++
And, you tell me the public are a danger?
Yes they are, but only to themselves, not their customers.
I thought I’d better stop back there, that’s enough for now.
K.
Re: Trade Secrets?
Maybe this information is readily available on Google but I don’t see why, with a trade only section, this information should be displayed for all and sundry unless seeing the ads alongside for UKW spares sales this has something to do with it.
My thoughts are that if a punter wants info, let them find it but I wouldn’t go out of my way to help. I’m in business to make a living from my knowledge and will help anyone in the trade but not Joe Soap who wants to save a few bob.Re: Trade Secrets?
kwatt wrote:Well, when you have “engineers” calling you for technical support on how to get into a tumble dryer as in, get the back off it, I gotta say, there’s a number out there that are just as dangerous, if not more so than many members of the public.
Yes but Ken they are members of the trade forums, they were sufficiently qualified for you to allow them access. They are by definition “engineers”[sic] and have the right to ask the questions and be allowed to know the answers. When I and scores like me are privy to knowing these answers we take great delight in sharing that information here on UKW’s ‘closed’ trade forums. Helping them through the long, difficult and often hazardous learning process that is the daily routine of this our beloved trade.
You over these many years have fought the engineers cause and strive toward making their job easier and more productive. That’s why it’s all the more surprising when, on realising that the information I imparted upon the trade forums was published against my wishes (and seemingly many of my colleagues now since I started this thread) into the public domain?
Now, there’s no need to repeat your reasoning for this as you have made that abundantly clear already in no uncertain terms. I too, in my opening statement, have elaborated as far as I need go in giving my take on this most recent development. And I conclude from that that it is a worrying one and no mistake. So much so I wonder if sharing any more technical information that is, so far at least, unknown in the public domain is a wise thing to do given the circumstances?
Re: Trade Secrets?
Re-read what’s there Martin.
It is not a blow by blow account of how to repair something. It points in the right direction, yes, but doesn’t tell the person how to do it specifically.
You know as well as I that those are pretty much the rules in the public forums as well. People have to be capable.
As for engineers being allowed access, where did I say that they were members?
Don’t assume. 😉
K.
Re: Trade Secrets?
Maybe I am a dinosaur but I think I agree with Martin, the knowledge I have aquired over the years has cost me dearly in time and energy so I dont just GIVE it away randomly (but I will help those that are genuine seekers).
And as has been said already – some of the “engineers” looking for help ask such unbelievable questions that make me wonder about their ability.
Some of them are not very experienced and I can accept that as we all have to start somewhere, but some seem to say they have been at it for years and still…..Re: Trade Secrets?
The issue is not so much the fact this or any other information is not available elswhere but the fact a certain amount of trust in what is posted in the technical forums by people stays there. As has been said many times before as an industry its very tough and the leaking of information into the public domain is somewaht unavoidable but what is to be gained from ‘well other sites do it so lets do it to’ attitude? Most skill sets wether its legal, engineering etc are something an individual instinctively protects so scenarios like this one are bound to annoy/get the backs up of people when really it wasnt necessary to do imo.
Re: Trade Secrets?
Okay, think about what you’re saying here before you all post more, especially those that think it should be a completely “closed shop” because, that’s what you’re asking for.
Yet, the very same people will bemoan the fact that they can’t get technical support from a bunch of manufacturers.
And, praise the likes of the information available in the forums and the likes of the fault code guide.
So, what you’re saying is that it’s okay for us to all share information but woe betide anyone that shares it with anyone else, even in a diluted form?
Or, it’s not okay to rewrite information for consumption in other areas or fields?
Now, go back to what I said about a bunch of engineers…
Now THINK, why would any manufacturer be inclined to share their technical information given that there’s a bunch of so-called engineers that struggle to even come up to the rank of amateur? There’s a load of Joe Public that have more nonce than some people that are supposed “trade”, just as there is in almost all trades.
Oh, that would be, funnily enough, the same reason that is cited by engineers for not sharing information with the public, they’re not competent.
I know that some of you may think that this is in some way insulting but it isn’t and isn’t intended to be, it’s the cold hard facts. Whether you like them or choose to accept them or not, I could care less in all honesty. But what I cannot idly stand by and let slide is that some people think there shouldn’t be a “closed shop” model applied within the trade yet expect one to be forced on non-trade members.
Can anyone see the contradictions?
And, FYI, there are very, very few “closed shop” business models that survive and they are normally broken up through either legislative pressure (since it’s technically illegal in most countries, considered monopolistic usually), consumer pressure or they simply go bust as customers walk away.
K.
Re: Trade Secrets?
I agree a closed shop is not the way to go but neither is a total free for all. It worries me also the questions that are asked by engineers some of which can be answered by a quick forum search.
The trade itself has had a big shake out not too many years ago. The ability to clear a pump and change brushes would fix most jobs, but now the electronic problems have put paid to a lot of these so called engineers, leaving the ones who can make the change. Only last week I had 2 jobs where a shorting triacs on the pcb caused problems in the machine which is not a job some engineers can do nevermind the general public
As part of the independant sector I see this site as way of earning trust so the public will feel more comfortable in calling an independant rather than the manufacturer
I help people all the time on the phone it builds customer loyalty. normally simply faults like filters the never knew existed (who reads the manuals or can find tham when theres a fault), clocks on cookers to changing the socket the appliance was plugged into
Dave
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