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Here’s the scenario, a relation of mine has a Indesit Intergrated Washer which has had a bit of service history attached. Anyway last week it started sticking in the cycle and as they have a Currys Insurance ( 5 Year ) they called Currys to place a service call. Now having done that they were then told to ring Indesit directly with a code they had been given which would allow a service call to be raised. This was duly done, fast forward three days and up rolls the Engineer to repair the appliance.
His visit lasts 20 mins during which time he runs the appliance through various operations like Fill, Pump, Wash, Spin, at no time does he remove the machine from its location. His conclusion was that there’s not much wrong with the machine but he will order a part and someone will let them know when someone will be back to fit it ? In the meantime he advises that they use the machine as it should be alright and at the same time manages to sell them some Indesit/Hotpoint descaler !!!!
You guessed it, they use the machine and first wash the no advance fault is still in evidence, they call me and as I am going that way I said I would pop in a take a quick look. It was clear that the Indesit Engineer had not removed the machine or kitchen plinths, I firstly put the Megger on the machine and all was well, the socket they normally use was out of operation and a extension lead was in place supplying the power. I asked if this was like this earlier when the engineer called. Yes exactly the same they said, Polarity check reveals that there is NO Earth on the machine ? Removing the plug top confirmed that the earth lead was not attached to the earth pin !!!!
That sorted out for my safety and that of the relation I proceeded to remove the kitchen plinths and removed the filter and removed some coins ! could this be the No Advance Issue ?
Tested the machine through a complete 40c wash cycle to the point where they said it got stuck and it passed right through. As there is a spinning and draining session before the sticking point my guess was that the machine was not draining properly and was sticking.
I then notice that the Motor is arching and that the drum bearings are noisey, as theres only a couple of months left on their warranty I advise them to call Indesit back up and complain.
I said that I would speak to them, after 25 minutes we got connected to a person, after outlining that the machine was faulty still I enquired as to what part had been ordered. They said that the Engineer had cleared the job down as first time completion and that NO part(s) had been ordered !
I told them that I wanted a recall ASAP and that the Engineer had not diagnosed the previous problem or other issues as if he had tested the machine correctly he would or should have come across them.
I was then told that there was a part on order which was a selector switch ?
Having complained I asked when the engineer would be back, Indesit then stated that he would not as they needed a Reference Number to raise the call.
I explained that the engineer had called earlier that day and that they surely should have the reference number already. No when a job is completed the reference numbers are erased of the system for security reasons. They said if I were not happy then I should make a complaint to Customer Services !I asked how it was that as a paying customer at every stage the onus was placed on me the customer to do this, and to do that ?
They said that’s just the way it works !
At this point my relations mobile rings and guess ? yes it’s Indesit on the phone who want to confirm a appointment for a few days time to fit the selector switch.
I got the phone and asked to whom I was speaking, I then asked where they were calling from. Oh Its ****** from Indesit, Peterborough, I said oh could you hold one moment please, Back on the landline I asked the girl where she was based, we are in Peterborough she said, I said well I have got ***** on the phone here also from Indesit, Peterborough wanting to confirm a visit to fit the part, do you people not talk to one another ?She’s in a different office so no we have no contact ! at this juncture the 1st Girl then states, Oh my system is being updated and the engineer has order a selector switch and MOTOR ? This had now changed from no parts ordered earlier and the clear down of a good job.
I said that is fine, what about the noisy bearings then, The girl said she would get hold of the engineer to ascertain what parts would be required in that area.
I asked as there were now a lot of parts to be fitted would the engineer have enough time to do such long job, Oh yes she assured me he will get the standard job time to do all this !Phone call concluded my relation asked what would happen when the engineer comes back, I said for starters he will not be happy, if it’s the same engineer who knows what kind of job will end up getting done ?
So nothings changed in the corporate service environment, engineers it seems are run ragged with not enough time to do the work properly and too many calls. In this case I will apply these circumstance to this engineer and give him the benefit of doubt as I cannot believe he did not safety test the appliance or the supply the appliance was connected to.
With all the parts required for this repair, the time needed to do it, and notwithstanding the possibility that after the new timer selector has been fitted and that my own diagnosis of that issue could be wrong Indesit will be left with a customer making a further call for No Advance and further visits and parts
Its all in a days work I suppose, it makes you realize that the service we offer is controlled, quick, efficient and reasonable in costs, if only we could get the wider public to adopt this view we could all be in a very different ball gameRe: When is Service not a Service ?
thats one of the reasons i left ind/hotpoint. most employed engineers dont have a clue, franchise engineers much better as if they get a recall within 30 days, they dont get paid, employed engineers order anything and everything and get away with it.
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
A good enough reason I would say ! Nothing worse than working in a team or so called team and then having to go back on someone else’s call with a load of parts which they hoped would repair the fault. My own experience of this is that depending on how deep the companies pockets are, how call statistics are used in the case of the companies engineers, and customer complaints. The company will either go bust, get rid of the offending engineers or franchise out.
You cannot run a company with widespread incompetence and make a profit from it, not that I am suggesting the the company have widespread incompetence but based on my own experience in this case and from other customers who have found the service to be of poor quality.
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
I’m busy doin recalls/Insurance claims/Trading standards inspections on behalf of brands who have had independents, such as JTM employ etc etc and situations have required inspection, lets just say there are issues on both sides.
One or two bad apples don’t mean the orchard is rotten, there are a lot of peoples doing lots of things for many reasons.
Last week a call was done after a Hotpoint Tech claimed to fit many parts to several different clients, found out he’d stolen them for his independent friend, they both planned to make a few pounds extra at the expense of the employer.
I would also point towards the tech section of this site, it does not inspire much confidence in independents working on appliances they have little tech knowledge of (ducks down for cover :rotfl: )
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
I’m busy doin recalls/Insurance claims/Trading standards inspections on behalf of brands who have had independents, such as JTM employ etc etc and situations have required inspection, lets just say there are issues on both sides.
Agreed !
Last week a call was done after a Hotpoint Tech claimed to fit many parts to several different clients, found out he’d stolen them for his independent friend, they both planned to make a few pounds extra at the expense of the employer.This is something that has been going on for years, there’s always some smart **** who thinks he can cheat the system and many do until they get caught out, statistics are monitored and high usage engineers will be scrutinised at some stage, depending on the company it could go on for years, one manufacturer engineer I came across was selling off spares for a couple of years and had sheds full of stock being used for private work and flogging off.
I would also point towards the tech section of this site, it does not inspire much confidence in independents working on appliances they have little tech knowledge of (ducks down for cover
One things for certain, amongst the rank of members on this site are many highly skilled engineers who choose to work for themselves, they use their heads everyday to not only solve technical issues, run a business, obtain work, help others here and shape the course of UK WhiteGoods and the Independent trade, they are multi brand, multi-skilled people who do not have the benefit of being run through a manufacturers training course and being given tech updates as and when, as well as being fed daily work.
My point was that as a specific brand engineer not only had the engineer missed the safety checks, he also failed to diagnose the appliance to which he had been called to. With Indesit/Hotpoint charging a hundred quid payable upfront I reckon customers are entitled to getting a engineer who can provide the aforementioned requirements. If Manufacturers were more open with Tech Information then the Technical Section would not see so many questions, questions I might hasten to add that do not mean that the engineer asking them is any less qualified than someone else such as manufacturers service engineers who have been given that info ! I reckon your right to duck for cover 🙂 Having been trained by a manufacturer myself I can see both sides of the fence and I see more failures lately in my neck of the woods from fast moving manufacturers engineers who have little time or little interest in doing what they have been paid to do and hardly any cockups from other independents working my area,Just MAYBE as independents we have got more of a stake in getting it right as we do not forget the customer has a choice who to call as opposed to the cosseted manufacturer / franchise people going in with the scatter gun parts treatment in the hope that some poor other bugger will get the recall to fit the parts ! What I can say is that having seen the Indesit / Hotpoint Service model at work its obstructive, un-user and un-customer friendly, and from the first initial call requesting a service call its absolutely a nightmare to deal with and makes me wonder how the wider public who call them or have to call them because they are tied via a service plan have the time and patience to jump through all the hoops to get a repair !
My turn to hit the trench ?
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
Both sides believe there better.
No different to my local tyre fitters who regularly slag off Kwik Fit.
Although I have to side with the persons given the training and tech info direct from the horses mouth as opposed to the guy not given, whether that person implements them will always be an issue, its a matter of personality. But at least the employed tech has more to lose than the self employed, look no further than the Watchdog wall of shame, their faces are all over the TV yet they still operate and make money. The option most bad apples have when sacked from companies is to become self employed.
I’ve just read some of the technical questions and I’m not going to embarrass anybody but asking questions about Beko washers not spinning, are they really that different from any other appliance, do they not all have a motor, tacho and a method of control.
I personally would not be happy booking an engineer for anything knowing that he then needed to ask what could be the fault on a forum or for that matter a friend before walking through the door, especially seeing the consequences of incompetence.
Talking about incompetence I need to contact UKW next week as they sent me a Motor, Wiring Loom,PCB and a Suppressor for an Amica appliance, I haven’t done any Amica work for a yr and looking at the part list neither has the guy who ordered them. :rotfl:
It of course happens in the brands, but it tends to be the less experienced who have either little confidence or there not brained up for fault finding, generally there not going to last in the job, not everybody is technically minded,thanks to Jobcentre initiatives, the military resettling and retraining programs, many are sent without any thought into this.
At the end of the day it matters little, there will always been a winner and a loser.
I see complaints and praise to both sides, only last week I found out I left a hose pipe dripping behind an appliance, the client noticed the carpet in the hall turning brown a week after I left :boops: .
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
Both sides believe there better.
No different to my local tyre fitters who regularly slag off Kwik Fit.
Don’t even mention Kwik Fit to Me !
Tried to con my wife saying she neeeded new shocks to the rear of her car !
The thing is they only replaced them a month earlier ! On the other hand my local tyre specialist is honest and fair ! Why ? Because he depends on you to return where the likes of Kwik Fit could’nt care less.Although I have to side with the persons given the training and tech info direct from the horses mouth as opposed to the guy not given, whether that person implements them will always be an issue, its a matter of personality. But at least the employed tech has more to lose than the self employed, look no further than the Watchdog wall of shame, their faces are all over the TV yet they still operate and make money. The option most bad apples have when sacked from companies is to become self employed.
Training is only one aspect of what we do, experience is another, A Engineer who has had multi-brand experience, electrical qualifications, Gas Safe, will be more than competent than someone fresh out of the brainwashing centre, as for WatchDog lets not forget that they have over time ran features on various service companies who have treated customers badly with a catalogue of errors strewn behind not one but various engineers, probably all empowered with knowledge from the horses mouth as you put it !
I’ve just read some of the technical questions and I’m not going to embarrass anybody but asking questions about Beko washers not spinning, are they really that different from any other appliance, do they not all have a motor, tacho and a method of control.The basic theory above is all standard fodder is it not ? I would wager that any service engineer employed as part of a regional team would talk to other engineers in that team regarding problems and faults, you know talking shop.
Education would come by that route and the classroom does not impart that kind of knowledge once your out on your own.I personally would not be happy booking an engineer for anything knowing that he then needed to ask what could be the fault on a forum or for that matter a friend before walking through the door, especially seeing the consequences of incompetence.
When you were booking a engineer I doubt very much that you or I would be aware of how qualified he may or may not be. Hence the fact that the Indesit Engineer completely missed the fact that the appliance he was working on and that the customer was using had NO EARTH, Dear o’ Dear.
It of course happens in the brands, but it tends to be the less experienced who have either little confidence or there not brained up for fault finding, generally there not going to last in the job, not everybody is technically minded,thanks to Jobcentre initiatives, the military resettling and retraining programs, many are sent without any thought into this.It surely down to the company training these people to ensure that they are as you put it, Brained Up, and surely if they were not of a technical mind how an earth would they ever pass a entry test into a manufacturers training scheme of course assuming that the manufacturer had such a scheme ?
Just getting back to Watchdog lastly they normally feature people who have had many complaints made against them and they work in conjunction with Trading Standards. I don’t think for a minute that any of these idiots are typical of the many Service Engineers across the country and especially my other colleagues who sit on this forum. The reason we are all here is to work in a unified way, adopting professional standards, running a fair and honest business, many of who have been running service and repair companies for many many years, my own business has been trading for 40 years and we have a large client based business all of which is no accident. Personally I enjoyed my time when I worked within a manufacturers service department, we had a strong team who helped each other and kept a clean backyard and the training was top notch, however it was only when things changed at that company and the new owners brought in heavy handed ham fisted managers who wanted to run the engineering force ragged with far too much work, promises they could not keep, and poorly implemented call areas that we saw sickness levels rise, spares not available, spares ordered up which you knew would not fix the problem, staff leaving and a host of other warning bells that I had enough and joined the Dark Side,
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
All your points can be placed both ways, there are many cowboys self employed as employed.
As for sharing technical knowledge, yes happens, but I’d be concerned if a fellow employee was asking such basic questions for such basic faults.
Maybe its an issue with cash flow, get it wrong and your stuck with a part, would explain why many independents pick and choose there jobs.
As for Kwik fit at least they knew how to fit the shock and didn’t need to ring your guy for help. 😉
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
As for Kwik fit at least they knew how to fit the shock and didn’t need to ring your guy for help. :boops:
Sorry but you have got the wrong end of the stick with that, Kwik Fit replaced the rear shock absorbers a month before, having taken the vehicle back for a tyre issue they then said you need new rear shocks. Same garage, Same Staff,
If their that stupid I thought let them get on with it, so I allowed them to spend the best part of 50 mins fitting more new ones. When it was time to pay for all this work I advised them that no money was due as the parts were under warranty having been fitted four weeks previously ! 😀
The guy at my local garage knows full well how to fit any part to a vehicle but he would not try a stunt like that. 😉
As regards the Technical forums you obviously stop by there and read the topics, are you saying that you have never learned anything from those topics.
Some how I find that hard to believe ?Lee8 Said
Maybe its an issue with cash flow, get it wrong and your stuck with a part, would explain why many independents pick and choose there jobs.Yes your right if we get it wrong we could well be stuck with a part which of course makes it all the more salient that we get it right ! If you get it wrong it will not be you paying !
We often arrive at a customers house where Mr Manufacturer has been and has either written the appliance off and we have been able to effect a valid repair or they have gone away saying parts will need to be ordered.
Recently my next door neighbour had manufacturers service to his washing machine for no heat, the engineer had gone away to order said part, he could not confirm when he would be back to fit that part. Four days later the neighbour gets a phone call from the service office saying the part was out of stock and it could be three weeks before the part was available ! We sourced the part the next day and within 48 hours the appliance was working again.
So you can see that in the scheme of things, i.e that the manufacturers own service engineers having access to all the relevant info, the supposed van stocks, the training, the investment, the call centres, the multi-driven phone menu systems, lol ! and working on a set of products which they should know like the back of their hand, they should be able to cope with all this, the reality is that there are many issues which we are all aware of which conspire against this being the case, hence my original post !
On the other hand for the Independent Repairer who has reliable skilled trained engineers, he is able to tightly control the work flow, its costs and outcome which if handled right will suit the vast majority of customers who require a fast dissapearing commodity called Personal Service !
Yes there are cowboys out there in all trades and whilst I am NOT suggesting that anyone here who may happen to work for manufacturers service is one I don’t see how you have such a low opinion of independents.
I know a number of engineers who do work for the likes of Service Force and Bosch as well as a few others, they are professional in what they do and fortunately my relationships with them is a two way street which helps us as well as them 😉
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
20 yrs in the industry, have been a technical engineer, trainer and assessor, also worked in several countries, my OH grew up with the now Director of Service for an international appliance brand.
So yes I ask questions and have needed to and still do need to ask, but not at the level of a Beko not spinning.
I read the tech area before posting, I don’t post on there because as with many forums there are always smart arses bent on scoring points and as we all no there always right.
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
squadman wrote:
So you can see that in the scheme of things, i.e that the manufacturers own service engineers having access to all the relevant info, the supposed van stocks, the training, the investment, the call centres, the multi-driven phone menu systems, lol ! and working on a set of products which they should know like the back of their hand, they should be able to cope with all this, the reality is that there are many issues which we are all aware of which conspire against this being the case, hence my original post !
A brand will never be able to compete with a local business who, such as the guys here complaining they have 3 calls a week for service.
To believe so is foolish.
My local Service Force agent employees 4 tech’s, recently 5 but he got the boot for selling on E bay, they also do JTM etc etc, last month they where given notice that the completion rate is too poor, average 3 visits for first fix. :rolls:
The companies I work for a dropping independents and making there own guys travel due to poor repairs from independents.
Friday I had to rewire a PCB which an independent fitted, managed to wire the 4 connection wrong so that when the heater comes on and you open the door the appliance still runs, cleans the ceiling lovely. 😆
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
squadman wrote:She’s in a different office so no we have no contact ! at this juncture the 1st Girl then states, Oh my system is being updated and the engineer has order a selector switch and MOTOR ? This had now changed from no parts ordered earlier and the clear down of a good job.
I’m going to drift off topic a little here on this singular point and, stress that what Lee says is partly true and also partly untrue.
It is not unknown for large companies, I know of one or two that actively do this to fudge completion figures and rates for some insurers to score higher, to close the job as complete then return to complete the repair later. This is OEM service, not independents.
As John says, what gets measured gets done.
But, this makes a complete mockery of the CLAIMED completion figures. You may as well spin the tombola and pick a number at random as believe a lot of these numbers.
Then, when you have engineers that who have bonuses set by using call completion rates and a business that’s judged on those figures, what does any right minded person with an ounce of common sense think is going to happen?
Apart from financial incentives to employed engineers mainly as, if your self-employed the motivations are slightly different, you also have the whole cheating to win awards thing going one, covered in the past here…
And, again here…
Both can be guilty, employed and self-employed but having been both and managed both I can assure you that an employed engineer, if his bonus is based on completion, will “complete” calls. Whether it’s actually good customer service or not, well that’s a whole other thing.
If the call can’t be completed quickly (bearing in mind he’s probably got too many calls on anyway) then a load of parts gets ordered up to try to clear it on the second pass, as quickly as possible.
Many indies also do this. Seen it. See it. Almost every day. And if you do it, you stand out like a lighthouse in the pile of call sheets.
But primarily, it’s the domain of the employed engineer and the stats prove it.
That’s why this sort of thing happens.
Engineer can’t be bothered to pull the machine out to diagnose it, takes a guess and moves onto the next one whether the motivation is time or money and just orders up a bunch of bits that he hopes will solve the problem.
What is very worrying is the trend to cheat the system and, if I were an insurer or warranty company, I’d be very, very concerned.
K.
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
Well put and completely correct.
We are dealing with businesses that turn over huge incomes, run by people who don’t give a monkeys for Mrs Smith customer service or Mr Tool’s repair ability, yes they PR themselves as Customer driven and they enforce Service Managers and stats, but having spent time in places with like minded people around the attitude is completely different, what matters is the companies numbers, there investors and keeping their own jobs, because the higher up the corporate ladder you climb the less sentiment there is.
Everything is done for a reason, their not complete idiots that are unaware of the business there in.
Same as Kwik Fit, slight oversight on the part of the Tech, but nothing to get concerned about, maybe to an expert you needed new shocks anyway, now had the service centre not completed the minimum repairs required for that month, that would be an issue, even if a few peeps moan, lets not kid ourselves Brits moan, lots, trading off profit against a few disgruntled customers is why in our industry they spend so much on PR and wining and dinning dealers.
I don’t no about your neck of the woods but my local fitters are all ex Kwik Fit guys, probably unhappy that their not making as much money.
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
I would say that you can crunch numbers anyway you want, the bottom line is that sooner or later the S*** hits the fan. You have to bear in mind that no matter if your Big Repair Company No 1 or little Syd down the road without customers your finished, especially paying customers !
Seen all of what you speak of before and how scape goats are selected and dealt with at all levels ! No company can run with engineers running around not completing jobs, over ordering spares and regurgitating work which should have been completed but is then Regenerated for subsequent weeks, = Call Rate Lead Time Up, Customers unhappy, engineers still working same modus operandi, it all repeats again and again, Go Figure.
Lee8 Said
Same as Kwik Fit, slight oversight on the part of the Tech, but nothing to get concerned about, maybe to an expert you needed new shocks anyway, now had the service centre not completed the minimum repairs required for that month, that would be an issue, even if a few peeps moan, lets not kid ourselves Brits moan, lots, trading off profit against a few disgruntled customers is why in our industry they spend so much on PR and wining and dinning dealers.
Oversight ! you gotta be kidding, Nothing to get concerned about ? Experts ?
If you were running that operation and your fitter spent a hour fitting the same parts which had been fitted to the same vehicle 4 weeks before at your garage the situation would be this.Your stock would be used to effect this needless repair,
Your turnover would be reduced due to the fact that whilst your fitter was engaged in this job he and YOU would earn no money ! he could have been engaged in performing a job which would earn money for the business and help cover the fitters wages.
Where does the word EXPERT fit into this ?
Nothing to get concerned about ?
As his manager your concerns would not be raised by any of this ?
My view of this is that as Brits we need to moan, lets complain loudly as possible and where does it say that we have to accept such complacent attitudes ? Personally I cannot wait to this week to see what happens when the Experts return to complete this repair.
To recap, Customer Services have ordered a motor, timer selector and parts to repair the bearing issues. Now lets see if that is what we get, or will we get a half hitched repair with parts that should have been ordered not be sent to the engineer? or will the parts ordered not be correct ? Perhaps the engineer will need more parts and the appliance is written off ? ( the latter would suit my relations ! )
Its seldom that I would take such issue with a service companies methods but having seen what happened last week and allowing that this is possibly a rogue incident it does not change any of the facts Lee8 that Expert is not a term one could use in this case and it cannot be defended in my opinion.
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
squadman wrote:I would say that you can crunch numbers anyway you want, the bottom line is that sooner or later the S*** hits the fan.
Not so.
But, chill out man before you have a stroke or something. 😉
read this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65315
The point is that, if the whole racket is a numbers game then how you manipulate the numbers is actually more important than the level of service you give or what you do. So long as you appear to be giving the results that are looked for, you’re okay.
Now for the indies, generally speaking, the level of service is more important than the paperwork and the scores on the doors. See, we all tend to regard the customer and the service given as a higher priority than the bits of paper or the score, whatever that might be in the current season, because we want the repeat business and we have to operate in the same pool of customers for many years.
Indies therefore see things in a completely different light and all too often without the benefit of a more global view of things, seeing their own small corner of the world and little outside of that.
Larger organisations tend not to see things that way.
However, as P.T. Barnum said, “There’s a sucker born every minute”.
Why is it not so?
Because there’s always another sucker that will succeed the one that just left and swallow the line that the service will be better by changing things up a bit.
Because there’s always another sucker that will pay for the warranty, service, product or whatever else where one won’t.
If you read between the lines, you’ll get it.
And people wonder why I utterly despise the term KPIs. It truly is a stupid, stupid business school mentality that we have to deal with, not one borne of actual real world experience with those things known as customers. Or, marks, if you’re PT Barnum.
K.
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