[2Tricky]

electrofix wrote:is the rubber on the end of the plunger sticky ?

Dave

That seems like a really good question and it hadn’t occured to me. I have no idea, but didn’t look sticky (if sticky has a look). As the unit is back in one piece, maybe I’ll try it in situ as it is, as the plunger will have been rotated to a new position after handling. Otherwise it sounds as though it’s worth looking at.

Thanks for the idea 🙂

Update:
It’s two months later and so I thought it time I reported in…

The plunger wasn’t sticky, but whilst it was apart I sprayed silicone onto any plunger contact surfaces. Reassembly saw me turning the solenoid 90 degrees – just to change any surfaces that had contact. The result was that the machine now had the opportunity to display another malfunction that had blended with the value issue – the soap tray didn’t always open and this froze the progress of the timer. I took the door apart and oiled the mechanism that opens the door latch (I didn’t have grease) and tried again. It worked flawlessly for several washes, until one hot day, the valve wouldn’t work again, even with sustained tapping with a screwdriver’s handle. However, I happened to open a mains pressure tap near to the washer and immediately the valve opened and the dishwasher completing the cycle.

So, if I have one question, I’m wondering whether this shines any light on which part of the valve might be at fault. I’m thinking that maybe it wasn’t simply because of the jarring nature of the tapping, but to do with pressures briefly shifting inside the valve maybe?

Any thoughts very welcome please.

[2Tricky]

electrofix wrote:i would have inspected this diaphragm for splits etc

Dave

Dave I inspected it pretty well I think, under a magnifiying glass and could see nothing. Would you have removed it from the assembly completely for inspection? As mentioned before, my unit hums when activated and if this doesn’t open the valve, knocking it with a screwdriver handle opens it.

[2Tricky]

electrofix wrote:you have never been able to buy diaphrams. you would need a valve of the same type to take it out of

Dave

Ah!

I’ve taken it apart and found very little I think. The overflow area was bone dry and every area of the whole thing was clean. Although the diaphram is bruised where it seals the assembly, it has no leaks or marks to speak of and deforms freely and uniformly. The solenoid plunger seems curious in that you could say it has signs of impact on both ends (dropbox pic’s Plunger 1 & Plunger 2) and I’ve given links to the other parts too. The plunger seems to move perfectly freely in either orientation.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/swmhpvozmj…r{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}202.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pus58o86b4…r{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}201.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1hiezhwlml…32.18.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vfemytnku4…31.40.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rouvvyo5h9…{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2026.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p8yyusqvkb…{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2016.jpg?dl=0

I’d be gratefull if you would advise (if you can) and also which way the plunger goes back – if you remember – as I’ve forgotten!

Many thanks.

Update:
I think the orientation should be as in picture Plunger 1, as this end is plastic and seems to have more appropriate impact marks. It’s all reassembled now and I can only hope that the disturbance has improved something.

I’ll try it and report back. Thanks again.

[2Tricky]

electrofix wrote:

had the same valve type in an old Miele washer the other week. opened valve and the rubber diaphragm was a different size from the current units

Dave

iadom and Dave;

Well; I admit that generally I try once and hesitate twice when using force, but my first attempt with screwdrivers that were marginaly too thick failed, and so I’ll give it a second shot and this time holding it in a vice (carefully). It looks to me like the “catch” is well and truly bent beneath the base plate and the sheet metal is pretty thick too. I imagine that with the right tool it would be easy, even within the plasticity limits of the metal maybe (so no need to bend back afterwards), but without one, much less so.

Dave; where would I get a replacement diaphragm if necessary?

Thanks for the advice again – and I’ll be sure to let you know how it goes!

[2Tricky]

Sorry to be a bad penny iadom, but I am anxious to not compromise the valve whilst taking it apart…

Here is a shot of the valve: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zgsdjnobln8phsv/Photo{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2014-04-2021{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2C{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2009{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2048{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2019.jpg?dl=0
I can’t get a satisfactory grip on the two screws in yellow, before removing the solenoid’s sheet metal frame – but don’t know how to take this off. Does the plastic whitish part in front of the red arrow turn? It doesn’t yield with moderate force. The solenoid is loosely held in place by a bent arm (blue arrow) that appears to keep it roughly aligned, but it also appears to prevent a straight-up extraction.

Any ideas on how to tackle this or should I simply force the screwdriver in as best I can?

Thanks!

[2Tricky]

iadom wrote:It’s very doubtful that the later valve unit would work. It is so long ago now but I think the pressure hose to the later valve was routed from a different part of the machine. The pressure levels would therefore be of a different calibration. The stainless steel solenoid plunger in the valve could be sticking. On later valves the sprung plunger is housed inside a plastic moulding but these earlier valves had a brass like alloy for the solenoid body. Over many years it was possible for a small amount of corrosion to cause the plunger to stick. Also the rubber diaphragm inside the valve deteriorates with age which also leads to valve failure. A very careful strip down of the actual solenoid mechanism to clean everything and inspect the diaphragm would be my next step.

Thanks iadom,

I’ll see if I can strip it down for examination/cleaning without being destructive and if push comes to shove, buy the same again. I’m not too surprised to hear that plastic has replaced metal.

Thanks again.

[2Tricky]

iadom wrote:That looks fine and TBH I never had any problems with that part of the valve unit. It was either open circuit solenoids or sticking valves. Usually if you listen closely you can hear the valve buzzing.

Thanks iadom.

Yes, I always hear buzzing when it appears to have stalled. It looks like we know what I want and so I just have to get hold of one – somehow. Thanks for all the effort on this.

Cheers!

Update:

Sorry, I thought I was finished 🙂

It looks like I can’t find a second hand part that is atomically correct and so must consider an alternative. Would the part mentioned earlier (D120027) work in principle (pressure, voltage etc) – if I can modify brackets and pipe lengths to squeeze it in? Must these be orientated in a particular way or is there some flexibility? This would allow me to take the least route of resistance when fitting.

Thanks again 🙂

[2Tricky]

iadom wrote:
The whole machine is almost certainly so, electronic controls not common in those days.
If it has a rotary control timer or a bank of large square push buttons and no digital display it is entirely mains voltage.

Makes sense iadom…

I’ve got better access to the valve now and the overflow pipe appears empty when the machine has completed, and so I think that’s not the problem. But for completeness, I wonder whether you would mind taking a look at a short video here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sftnjsecbh…{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2036.mov?dl=0

Is this the normal movement for this part? Should I try to take it apart for cleaning – even if I think it’s working well (once the valve is tapped) and is it safe to do so from the point of view of disturbing seals? Incidentally, it was shot with the dishwasher on its back.

Many thanks.

[2Tricky]

iadom wrote:The other valve or any alternative would be impossible to fit in.

BSH,basically Bosch, Neff, Siemens. I worked for Hotpoint from May 1969 until 1980 when I left to go self employed. These Bosch/Neff dishwashers where made for Hotpoint in the very early 70’s. Models 840, 850, 860 & 870.

Should be BSH not the department store BHS, oops.

BSH Hausgeräte GmbH is the full name of the German parent company.

I guess that if I climb out of the box, I’ll be able to make a bracket and extend pipes to suit whatever I settle on. Incidentally, my valve is mains 240V.

[2Tricky]

electrofix wrote:well looking at the pics I think your valve may be this one

https://shop.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/7051836-safety-water-inlet-valve

Dave

Thanks Dave and iadom beat me to a comment about the price. For me, my shoestring just wouldn’t reach that cost.

I guess that if push comes to shove, I could get one with the same connections and buy a shoehorn. I chuckled when iadom said that they were intermittent. Do you think the designers grandson now occupies the position?

[2Tricky]

iadom wrote:The very first BHS dishwasher made for Hotpoint had a slightly different valve to that one, from memory ( it was a long time ago) the actual solenoid was at a different angle. When Hotpoint decided to go back into selling dishwashers they sent one engineer from each district to Peterborough for a five day course on just this 4 model range. I was the designated dishwasher engineer for all of Manchester North. It was over 6 months before I got my first call out, couldn’t remember how to switch the drained thing on.:)

Not sure but think I might have copies of original manuals, will check later.

🙂

Sorry if I sound thick iadom, but this isn’t a Hotpoint badged washer of course. Who is/was BHS?

Update:
Iadom, I’d love a manual if you might have one. Mine’s turned to coal!

[2Tricky]

electrofix wrote:if the is a thin tube going to the valve. remove it but place it where it cant damage anything if water leaks out.

then try the machine
if water flows out of the thin tube ( wont be gushing as its not under pressure) then you know the overflow mech is causing the problem

if the machine still has the fault you have prob got a faulty valve

Dave

Thanks, I’ll do that too. In the mean time, here are two links to two shots of the valve from different angles – as it’s not out of the machine yet:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yyob8196gmcmyvo/2021-04-10{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2008.36.37.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/in79q71s1cy4wjw/2021-04-10{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}2008.37.07.jpg?dl=0

As I hope you can see, water comes in from the right, the electrical part is on top, the overflow sensor is beneath and the water-out is on the left. I’m not sure what size fittings these are, but if it is indeed the valve assembly, it would be good to have something that is anotomically correct in as many ways as possible – for ease of fitment.

Cheers!

[2Tricky]

electrofix wrote:the valve after the inlet valve is an overflow sensor. it uses air pressure from the machine to stop it filling if its over filled

you need to check you need a valve before you order as it could be down to a blockage in the machine.

Dave

Thanks Dave, I’ll do that.

Currently, I can’t imagine that there’s a blockage as it will often fill when appropriate and without intervention, and sometimes not fill when appropriate – when there is no water in the machine. If the machine seems to be “stuck” in the cycle, tapping on the valve makes the water flow in. What makes me ask about the reducing-pressure aspect is that water can be flowing in happily, and then stop after what seems to be an appropriate time, and yet the valve is still energised. From what you’ve said, I think this seems consistent in principle with it being a “working” overflow sensor dictating to the valve.

Thanks again Dave.

[2Tricky]

electrofix wrote:looks like nov 1985 not bad

some of the old ones use this

https://shop.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/0910…er-inlet-valve

you could post a pic of the valve but may have to host it somewhere else and ost a public link

Dave

Thanks Dave and Don…

Yeah, it’s a shame that even the likes of Neff seems to have sold out, by overwriting their database, similarly to Bosch’s new MO, which is to sell cheap (mediocre) stuff using their old good name.

Anyway; thanks for the link and image upload suggestion. The linked part looks similar to mine, but a little inverted. Is this a reducing pressure valve? My unit seems to be able to ignore when the value is open sometimes, as though another valve in-series is still closed/off.

Thanks again!

Update:
I’ll take a picture later and upload to Dropbox.

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