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Re: ISE / Beko — what makes one better than the other?
Beko can make good product, just like many others can as well, but what they cannot do, as we have explained, is produce good quality product AND have low prices, it’s that simple.
Fine. So please explain the depth of R&D that has gone into the CI555 that makes it better than Beko’s reference designs (is it even based on Beko’s mundane product?). As anyone who has worked in the design of electronic products, as I have (for a small bespoke electronic engineering firm), knows that the key to reliability is not necessarily as simple as throwing higher specification at a fundamentally inferior product.
This is not a trivial point: Honda did not achieve their position by simply upgrading those parts that didn’t perform. It was achieved by many years of meticulous research and development.
Unless of course you’re going to try to tell us that Swedish Asko produced machines are poor quality, in which case I will seriously fall about laughing.
At no point did I mention Asko. Indeed that flags up exactly the point that I am making — if Beko’s designs are good enough to be brought up to the industry best in their class, why not work with them for the manufacture of the higher-end designs as well?
Japanese machines aren’t as nice as you think and they are made specifically for the home Asiatic market, not for EU consumers although they are looking at expansion into the EU now in low volumes. The way that washing is done in Asia is entirely different to both US and EU markets.
It still doesn’t alter the fact that these machines are almost universally substantially more expensive, and have been shown to last longer than the typical badly-made Euro-garbage we have to put up with on this continent. The devices are very different, but the expertise of these companies can easily migrate to Euro-centred designs — the companies in question have proven this time and time again in other fields.
As for the picky comments about the comparison made, you obviously missed the point and have decided to try to ridicule it.
Not really. The comparison appeared to confuse specification with quality. Kia are by no means at the bottom of the pile in engineering quality terms, even if they probably are fairly close to it in terms of the specification of some of their products.
Re: ISE / Beko — what makes one better than the other?
Thanks for the detailed response.
I am still not entirely convinced — why did ISE themselves go with Beko, a company at the lower end of the market, with a reputation in other markets for not producing kit to particularly high standards even when contracting out, and with a parent organisation that has been criticised in the past for pollution problems in their native Turkey.
Why not contract someone like Bosch, Miele or one of the several very high quality Japanese brands that never see the light of day over here, yet are responsible for some very classy appliances in their home market? (I’m thinking specifically here of Mitsubishi, National and Sanyo).
There still seems to be some cost compromise going on here. If I am given the choice between a £500 Beko (ISE) and a £500 Miele, I’m sorry but the ISE doesn’t even get a look in in my book. Too many variables, too little track record.
As for Kia vs Ferrari, hmmm. Has anyone tried to take a Ferrari to 150,000 miles? Modern Kias will manage that with no sweat if properly maintained; Ferraris are categorically not built with durability in mind. Yes, they are works of art, but it’s a very odd comparison to make.
Fiat vs Honda, or Citroen vs Toyota I would have accepted (worst vs best in the mainstream car market in reliability terms).
Re: Quality long lasting cooker
Like I say, generally speaking I agree with you.
I am disinclined, generally, to buy cheap stuff, unless it can be demonstrated that the cheaper stuff is OK.
But I’ve never seen a cooker give trouble.
With the one exception — a Belling oven that was spewing smoke and steam out the sides of the oven due to poor quality seals.
But I’d assumed that with Glen/Belling being a British company, they were actually fairly decent?
Perhaps not.
i wouldnt waste my money on ANY beko appliance.. not a penny, nor would i throw money away on a hotpoint/merloni thing
Beko are a funny one. They have a poor reputation. Their TVs are horrible. But every time I’ve owned a Beko (sometimes unwittingly, as they make other brands’ stuff) I’ve had no trouble with it.
Must be very lucky as you say. But then, as mentioned in another post, where does this leave the all-conquering ISE?
Re: Quality long lasting cooker
Ah, but this goes back to performance though doesn’t it?
Performance != Reliability.
As for luck, I guess I’m about to learn the hard way then. The Beko is starting to look a little grotty now (and the colour doesn’t match the rest of the kitchen) so it’s getting to the point where it’ll be going on Freecycle.
I can’t see myself buying anything particularly flash to replace it.
Re: Quality long lasting cooker
I just don’t like people spending too much on stuff for the wrong reasons — there are other rewarding things out there that are arguably more deserving of having cash splashed out on them (like a hi-fi with hyper-realistic sound quality for example 😀 ).
If a £2500 cooker produces better results than a cheap one, that’s fantastic. I guess my cooking doesn’t warrant such quality (I make a hash of beans on toast so I’m probably not the one to ask really!! 😆 ).
All I’m saying is that at that sort of price point you’ve gone way beyond reliability being an issue and firmly into features determining the price.
As someone in IT (teaching at a University, but I fix people’s kit on the side), I see this all the time. People assume that they need to spend £2000 on a PC in order to get several years out of it, when in reality they don’t need the extra functionality and could generally get away quite happily with a £150 unit, built by hand — so why not just spend an extra £100 on higher quality case materials etc and get something that’ll probably give then 7-8 years of service for the kind of work they want out of it anyway.
Looking at my cooker, I could probably strip the whole thing down and replace every cable and element myself, and have change out of £150. There just isn’t anything to it.
Still, it’s not my money and I have no right to tell you what to spend your cash on. As I say if you get VFM out of the better kit then fair play.
Re: Quality long lasting cooker
3 years out of a £500 cooker?
Have I woken up in 2043 or something??
If I spent £500 on a cooker and only got three years out of it, I’d be absolutely disgusted.
An element is an element. My cooker has no “brain” — it’s a collection of wires, switches and connectors.
What is there to go wrong? Should I be buying £30 light switches rather than £2.50 ones as well then?
I applaud the concept of buying quality items (I guess few others here would spend £4000 on a mostly hand-made hi-fi separates system), but £2500 for a cooker just to avoid build quality gremlins that IMO don’t really exist is overkill.
Re: Quality long lasting cooker
So explain to me then why I’ve had the same £200 cooker for the last ten years, and only had to replace the oven element (twice)?
I just don’t see the problem on a device with no moving parts. Indeed the more expensive units are likely to be the ones that are more likely to fail, not less — sophisticated PCB boards with timers and the like are the parts that will fail first, and a cheap cooker simply lacks them altogether.
Re: Quality long lasting cooker
Surely when it comes to cookers (no moving parts apart from a couple of fans), longevity isn’t an issue?
If an element fails, you replace it yourself. £12 for an oven element, 15-minute job even for a klutz like me.
Unless you want the toys, I really don’t see the point in spending much on cookers.
Yes the paint will peel eventually, but if aesthetics are an issue you’ll be wanting to change after 3-5 years anyway.
With cars, vacuum cleaners, microwaves, TVs etc etc I’ll buy the most reliable I can afford (OK I was seduced by the shinyness and flashing lights of my LG washing machine, but still). SO I have a (pre-Renault takeover) Nissan car, Miele vacuum, Sharp Microwave and Panasonic TV.
Cookers? Cheapest I can find. Hence I have a (ahem) Beko. It’s an impressive feat to get a cooker wrong — same with fridges IME.
