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Re: bbc watchdog
well that does make sense, but dont you think we do need something to rid us of the cowboy brush smeered against us all?
Mind you as far as the Watchdog proggramme goes, you cant help stupid people who hand over cash to someone they dont know and had just rang from the local paper.
Re: bbc watchdog
The problem with those stupid programs is that the glamorise the idiots for the effect within the media. It makes good TV or copy basically.
It doesn’t matter what trade you look at, there’s donkey’s in them all and all of the trades want rid of theses types of people but, no matter how much effort you put in, you can never get rid of them all. Case in point, Gas Safe, there was another one prosecuted by HSE just a couple of weeks ago for claiming he was Gas Safe (or CORGI) when he wasn’t.
What they do is, they do one of these every now and then, they don’t prosecute every one as they don’t have the funds to do it. So loads of rogues get away with it, even with the legislation in place. All the legislation does is allow HSE to prosecute if they know they’ll win and happen to have a few sheckles to do it at the time but, it’s done for effect… it’s showbiz to set an example in the vain hope that it’ll put other rogues off breaking the law.
Problem is, rogues really don’t care so the problem never really goes away. All you do is burden the legitimate businesses with the costs of an ineffectual and often burdensome system to make HSE or government look as if they’re actually doing something.
The whole “cowboy” thing started in the 70’s as factories closed, people looked for another career and some chose this industry without a lot (if any) training. But it was a lot easier back then replacing Hoover or Hotpoint carbs and armatures and charging for a new motor, clearing pumps and charging for a pump and so on.
These days, without access to the technical information (as Mr Brammel proved nicely) you haven’t got a chance as he clearly had no idea what the flashing lights were all about. In fact, I noted that the “expert” didn’t point this out either.
So the so-called “cowboys” that are out there now have diminished. So have actual repairers.
But the one thing I’ve learned over the past ten years in doing this is that, yes there are some in this game that, really, should be flipping burgers in McDonalds but, most are actually not too bad. What is a problem is knowledge, training in diagnostic skills, customer soft skills and in actually running a business.
Many so-called “cowboys” actually aren’t that in reality. They just need a bit of help.
Don’t get me wrong, there are some out there and there are some really, really bad boys but they’ll be like that regardless of what you do and, short of getting a prosecution there’s not much to be done about them.
Just look at the effort put into stopping Vance Miller and, he’s still trading despite multiple prosecutions and investigations involving huge resources being thrown at it. Quite simply, nobody has the cash to put that sort of effort into a little local repairer that happens to be being a bit of a bad boy. These guys know full well the worst they’ll get is a slap on the wrist from TS, so there’s nothing to put them off doing what they do.
K.
Re: bbc watchdog
DrDill wrote:well that does make sense, but dont you think we do need something to rid us of the cowboy brush smeered against us all?
Which is what the WTA COP is aiming to achieve ,by creating a benchmark by which repairers can be regularly assessed ,as I said at Coventry it is not a tool to be used to beat repairer’s rather it is a means by which to weed out the Clive’s of this world.
DrDill wrote:mind you as far as the Watchdog proggramme goes, you cant help stupid people who hand over cash to someone they dont know and had just rang from the local paper
This is why the likes of the OFT want to work with the WTA to protect consumers from the people that you have described .
LawrenceRe: bbc watchdog
what will the WTA do to prevent this type of rogue repairer from being a member of the WTA? As far as i can see anyone with the basic criteria can join the WTA as you have to be open to all.
Re: bbc watchdog
Lawrence wrote:Which is what the WTA COP is aiming to achieve ,by creating a benchmark by which repairers can be regularly assessed ,as I said at Coventry it is not a tool to be used to beat repairer’s rather it is a means by which to weed out the Clive’s of this world.
Oh please Lawrence spare us from dreaming about an idealistic world such as you describe when all around you can surely see the mayhem and chaos this trade exemplifies.
Regular assessment within any trade body is a blunt tool that hones nothing and no-one from their misdeeds or misgivings. Wearing a ‘I’m a good boy’ badge merely benefits both the creator of the badge and wearer in wearing it, but does bu&&er all good weeding out the outlaws such as our boy Clive.
Re: bbc watchdog
Dr Dill
Take a look at the WTA website look for the about the WTA pull down then go to code of practice then scroll to the bottom where you will see “monitoring and compliance with this code” followed by disciplinary procedures .
We can’t stop people from joining on hear say that he or she is disreputable however by mystery shopping and code compliance monitoring any member that falls into the above category would soon fall foul of the COP .
Resulting in disciplinary action resulting in expulsion or remedial action and compliance .
Now before you tell me that they could kill someone in the meantime ,they could do that anyway ,but the more engineers that are working to a bench mark the more chance we have of supporting the good ones and weeding out the bad ones
LawrenceRe: bbc watchdog
Martin wrote:Oh please Lawrence spare us from dreaming about an idealistic world such as you describe when all around you can surely see the mayhem and chaos this trade exemplifies.
What mayhem and chaos would that be Martin, can you be a bit more specific?
Martin wrote:Regular assessment within any trade body is a blunt tool that hones nothing and no-one from their misdeeds or misgivings. Wearing a ‘I’m a good boy’ badge merely benefits both the creator of the badge and wearer in wearing it, but does bu&&er all good weeding out the outlaws such as our boy Clive.
Which is exactly what Gas Safe is only with the backing of legislation to enforce compliance by reputable businesses.
However, whether it’s a WTA or DASA badge, it’s a whole heap cheaper to achieve than any other and at least displays that the trader is conscientious enough to be a part of an organisation that offers some standard.
K.
Re: bbc watchdog
Lawrence wrote:Which is what the WTA COP is aiming to achieve ,by creating a benchmark by which repairers can be regularly assessed ,as I said at Coventry it is not a tool to be used to beat repairer’s rather it is a means by which to weed out the Clive’s of this world.
Martin wrote: please Lawrence spare us from dreaming about an idealistic world such as you describe when all around you can surely see the mayhem and chaos this trade exemplifies..
I am offended by that ,what I can see around me are two things ,those that try and make a difference and those that sit on the sidelines carping but never putting anything constructive into the pot ,I know this industry is not perfect and there are roguetraders.
The question is what do we do about ,talk or try and take action ..
Be my guest if you think that there is a better way ,what was it a traders licence through the post office ….
I and others have tried damned hard over the last three years to make a difference ,we have travelled the country and met at our own cost to produce something that will have teeth,if it doesn’t work so be it at least I can say I tried to change things not just talk ……Martin wrote:Regular assessment within any trade body is a blunt tool that hones nothing and no-one from their misdeeds or misgivings. Wearing a ‘I’m a good boy’ badge merely benefits both the creator of the badge and wearer in wearing it, but does bu&&er all good weeding out the outlaws such as our boy Clive.
Even if you pre vet people from joining an organisation ,you still have to assess them regularly otherwise it turns into an old boys club….
Lawrence
Re: bbc watchdog
Martin do you know what you want? First you argue for some form of regulation and now you appear to have done a complete u turn and now do not want that.
Or are you just spoiling for an argument as I often think you are the way you write things?
I am confused as I often find myself when reading your posts.
Perhaps you would care to clarify for the benefit of all.
Re: bbc watchdog
Martin wrote:
Oh please Lawrence spare us from dreaming about an idealistic world such as you describe when all around you can surely see the mayhem and chaos this trade exemplifies.
‘Mayhem & chaos’ :hmm: I hope you can explain that comment, and as far as patronising Lawrence and all the WTA council members I’m not surprised Lawrence has taken offence by your comments, the hard work Lawrence and all the WTA council put in is immense, we all have views on the unwelcome publicity this idiot has caused our trade but the WTA and DASA are at least trying to do something and should be supported for their efforts.
Personally I have mixed feelings, in some ways I would like something like Gas Safe but I can also see the problems that would cause as Ken and Lawrence have pointed out in this thread, there is no easy answer but I have faith that the WTA are at least pushing us in the right direction, together we can all make a difference and hopefully idiots like this will be few and far between in the future
Re: bbc watchdog
Martin I just don’t get it with you at times.
I’ve read your posts with interest over the years, and a few years ago you made sense practically every time. Considering you are a sole operator, and not best qualified to speak up for the big boys, you didn’t do a half bad job.
However, lately you seem to be ploughing your own furrow. Dare I say you are not in the league of those that have to abide with all that comes with having more than 5 employees. Or by maintaining H&S legislation, Mission Statements and all that goes with the above. Not forgetting employment law and anything else that applies
Respectfully, you are nearing the end of your illustrious career, and legislation etc is overtaking most of us if we don’t watch out. In view of that we are evolving into a new culture.
Our competitors have changed from the local guy who used to repair cleaners & twin-tubs, and knew the customers by first name, as well as the kids. The ones that never needed to make an appointment as the customer was always at home in her little pinny, with the packet of Tide on the window-cill. We are no longer in the days of the Daz & Fairy Snow adverts, where everything looks like it came from the Trueman Show. Times have changed.
You now get the type of clown as in the BBC programme, there are more of them because community has diminished, and word of mouth or “I know a man who can” has all but gone. Apart from the rogue trader type with the no call-out and with the attitude they do not want to see the customer again, because they are in for the kill. The competition is also moving towards these that offer the web type service such as Repaircare and 0800Repair etc, and us the dependable and smaller guys need to match the model.
There is a need for responsible repairers, but at the end of the day the customer is the one who takes a punt.
I welcome what Lawrence with the WTA and what DASA are trying to do with an attempt to keep us as a recognised consumer industry. We are after all applying a trade, in fact several trades, and yet we cannot get recognition or dedicated training.
If we could make the public realise that idiots like Clive are a danger to life, property as well as their bank balance, then we will move forward.
In summary, may I suggest you sit back and allow us, the progressive and passionate members to make the necessary strides in moving forward to become recognised, and importantly respected in the eyes of the simple consumer.
Re: bbc watchdog
I don’t know why so many of you feel under-valued. I get a lot of respect and recognition from the vast majority of my customers. Perhaps that’s because I’m totally independent, though. Never have had to lie about my opinion of a manufacturer or their products in order to keep my job. Truth is, it only took 6 months training twenty odd years ago to set me on this road and I’m still learning every day so I find it hard to think of myself as a “professional”. That’s a term I associate with doctors, lawyers, teachers and tarts. This is a niche business in that it’s escaped regulation. I think one reason is that the trade is small, there’s not that many of us, some of us only have one foot in this side whilst doing other stuff (e.g. plumber, electrician) to earn a crust. That makes it difficult for the authorities to pin us down, to define who we are and what we do, and not worth spending millions on to try and regulate us. I’m happy for it to stay that way.
The odd rogue is going to be there, come what may. I reckon that started in the 1970’s BC, not AD. For the most part, customers don’t need the BBC to tell them there’s rogues out there. They’re all too well aware of it. Once they know you, though, their fear of trying new people works in your favour. As has been said many times on here, do a good job for a reasonable price and you’ll set yourself up with a good customer base in the long term.
Mike.Re: bbc watchdog
leavemetogetonwithit wrote:I don’t know why so many of you feel under-valued. I get a lot of respect and recognition from the vast majority of my customers. Perhaps that’s because I’m totally independent, though. Never have had to lie about my opinion of a manufacturer or their products in order to keep my job. Truth is, it only took 6 months training twenty odd years ago to set me on this road and I’m still learning every day so I find it hard to think of myself as a “professional”. That’s a term I associate with doctors, lawyers, teachers and tarts. This is a niche business in that it’s escaped regulation. I think one reason is that the trade is small, there’s not that many of us, some of us only have one foot in this side whilst doing other stuff (e.g. plumber, electrician) to earn a crust. That makes it difficult for the authorities to pin us down, to define who we are and what we do, and not worth spending millions on to try and regulate us. I’m happy for it to stay that way.
The odd rogue is going to be there, come what may. I reckon that started in the 1970’s BC, not AD. For the most part, customers don’t need the BBC to tell them there’s rogues out there. They’re all too well aware of it. Once they know you, though, their fear of trying new people works in your favour. As has been said many times on here, do a good job for a reasonable price and you’ll set yourself up with a good customer base in the long term.
Mike.+1
Re: bbc watchdog
Gentlemen, I thank you for your comments and I will try my best to answer the points you have directed toward my previous post. I would point out that the opinions I have expressed are very specific to the point of this thread. Specific in terms of what is currently being done or could be done in dealing with rogue traders such as our man Clive.
There is no legal framework, no regulation in place to stop these people. Trading Standards have readily admitted that they too are powerless to stop them.
There is further need in our trade for order and creating standards and that is something that the WTA has made in-roads toward, without question or a shadow of doubt, well for them I say. However I personally feel it can do little in changing the situation when only a mere fraction of the trade sees fit to join. There is strength in numbers for sure but it just won’t happen Lawrence, I’m sorry to say, it won’t. If you feel that was patronising of me to say what I said then I can assure you it was never intended that way.
As for my reference to “mayhem and chaos” then just take a look around at the rubbish the manufacturers are shipping out. Their lack of support, the ludicrous price of their spares, the built-in obsolescence and on and on….then add to that the wealth of cowboys selling machines off the back of the van, dodgy installers, conman fixers and fitters. That’s my definition of mayhem and chaos as best as I can describe from what I’ve seen and experienced this last 15 or so years past. A situation not lost either to Rudolph_Hucker a gentleman of whom I have the greatest respect.
It wasn’t my idea about a ‘Traders Licence’ by the way; I just threw that in ever hoping to contribute to a possible solution. The more I think about it the more I believe it may have some credence. A possible solution in stopping the rogues overnight. I mean, without a Driving Licence how may of us could do our job? (OK with the exception of Mike perhaps). Simple and cheap to administer, easy to police. And everyone would need one, no option, no licence, no job!
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