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Re: Fairy Active Bursts
Indeed, simple powder detergents did work well with rinse aid and salt. Then we got all-in-one tablets, which customers want because they are convient, easy to use and are less bulk to cart about in Tesco’s. The problems that those have given have been discussed many times on here before.
So we now have one that is back to powder, only in a tablet type format. They even recommend the use of rinse aid and salt for optimum performance, especially in areas of hard water, from memory that’s on the pack somewhere.
There’s no magic answer and I would doubt that any product can do it all in one. But that’s what people seem to want and expect from such products. 🙄
So in effect, if you think about it, this is what we’ve been recommending to customers for years to save any hassles. If you don’t follow your own advice… 😉
I did speak to someone this morning from P&G who has read the thread as I emailed them, but before I knew that the machine was being used in a hard water area and we drew the same conclusion, that under those conditions it will stress any product. The smell would have been bacteria left from not cleaning properly, not the product itself.
Testing dishwasher detergent is more subjective, you’re quite right Andy. But it is easy to see the differences over four or five samples run five times which is extremely hard to replicate outside a lab. Conversely, this is also why the feedback is taken notice of, as there’s a lot of conditions in the field that you cannot replicate in a lab.
K.
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
Having since carried out further studies on the use of Fairy Active Bursts I would agree that it is a very good product indeed. It works well in all departments and is especially good at lifting tea stains from well worn tea mugs. (that other tablets failed to do) 🙂
What still does concern me though about the product is the issue of most users in the UK not requiring to use additional salt and ignoring when the salt warning light comes on 😕
Now I have no issue with the effectiveness of the water softening ingredients within the product, but I cannot accept their recommendation for not using salt. 🙄
During the average dishwashing cycle, the machine washes & heats, rinses then rinses & heats as you know. Now the detergent is released during the main wash and its many and varied ingredients are set to work throughout the various stages of the total washing process. All formulated to release their varied actions through that time, all of which work well…brilliant…job done!….or is it?
So the up-shot of all this is that the product works fine on the dishes, saucepans and cutlery, but does bu$$er all good to the internal workings of the appliance. Only the ‘grey water’ section of the machine gets the benefit of the detergent, the incoming hard ‘mains water’ still has to circulate through the water softener unit and the water level unit and (in some machines) the heater exchanger unit, long before it gets to the grey water area! 😕
All these sections without salt will (over a matter of months in hard water area’s) suffer badly from the build-up of calcium carbonate deposits. All those lovely Zanussi IWMS’s will give up the ghost and the BSH machines with their scaled up Pressure Chambers to name but a few.
Fairy Active Bursts wrote:Fairy Active Busrts salt action is effective in soft, medium and hard water up to 26 degrees (Clark?). Your dishwasher should work effectively even if the rinse aid or salt warning light comes on. For extreme hard water above 26 degrees (Clark?) = (5{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of household) please use salt
Whilst I rub my hands at the even greater opportunity for repairing these scaled up appliances, I would regard myself as unprofessional if I didn’t at least advise my ‘mis-guided’ customers to use salt in future, irrespective of the claims of Fairy Active Bursts.
It would be interesting to hear what the various dishwasher manufacturers think on the subject? But I suspect some possible collusion between interested parties may prevent any truthful answers emerging?
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
Sorry Martin, can’t quite agree with you.
My Bosch dishwasher works perfectly well with this product, and as I live in a very hard water area, I use salt once every 6th months of use. That is 1 full salt pot full and let it empty on it’s own. I comfortably live with the salt and rinse aid indicators on, no bother. The appliance is used twice daily, home and office use, showing no adverse signs at all. Our glasses have that “squeaky” clean feel and shine brilliantly, and as you say they are excellent on tea cups.
Rinse aid? No thanks, not needed.kevin
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
kheath wrote:Sorry Martin, can’t quite agree with you.
I do not question the effectiveness of the product, I too have admitted it works very well indeed, especially not needing Rinse Aid. My concern is for the appliance and the likelyhood of damage caused through not using salt in the water softener as the manufacturers recommend?
Is the next generation of dishwasher that will be sold in this country NOT going to have water softeners fitted then? Is it ‘bye bye water softener & hello even cheaper dishwasher!’ ????
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
Its my understanding that on regeneration the “salted” water only flows through the crystals and is then pumped out to drain. At no time does that salted water circulate the tank, therefore it has no effective time to cleanse the electro/mechanical parts such as element and pumps.
The implication is that, therefore in soft water areas the properties of the softner are capable of “softning” without salt. As the packet says, if in a hard water area, use salt, whilst I’m no chemists, I’m pretty sure P&G would have to be sure of their facts to publish such a statement.
Therefore there is a need for the water softner in the future, unless the manufacturers want to make different models dependent on your water hardness measurement 😉
It’s rinse aid that there is no need for.Kevin
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
No, I doubt that there will be a dishwasher produced without a softener in it. As stated, above a certain Clarke rating salt is required or you would witness adverse effects. That doesn’t just apply to England, or the UK as other nations also have hard water too.
Whilst P&G (like most) will say that Active Bursts will work quite happily in most situations without rinse aid or salt, they have intimated that using rinse aid is “preferable for superior results” and that salt is required to deal adequately with certain water where the content of lime is high, as noted.
But here’s the real problem…
People want the convience of one “pill” to cure all. That is to say they want a 3/4/5/20/ in 1 just to get the job done and they don’t want to have to deal with different products to get the results. Certain manufacturers have made the most of that and marketed it exceptionally well, telling people that their product does just that even if it does so only under certain circumstances. So now our customers go out looking for the magic one-size-fits-all solution and we always tell them the same old thing… Powder, Rinse Aid, Salt. Buy the seperates.
At least with the Active Bursts we have a chance and, so far that I’ve seen, none of the overfoaming issues that have plagued us all of late. And, unlike powder, you can actually get it in the supermarket without any real hassle.
The technical stuff I’ll deal with when I’m more with it. 😉
K.
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
kwatt wrote:People want the convience of one “pill” to cure all. That is to say they want a 3/4/5/20/ in 1 just to get the job done and they don’t want to have to deal with different products to get the results.
Hi Ken
Im finding on my visits that customers in general have NO concept of 3/4 in 1 in tab, in as much to say that they still put salt and rinse aid in their respective compartments (we are in a soft to medium area)
When you explain that the whole point of 3/4 in 1 tabs is to take the hassle and reduce spending on additional salt and rinse aid, their reaction is one of astonishment 😯
Customer education needed in this area also.Regards
Greg
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
Yeah, I know. Customer confusion just due to the differing products and total lack of information.
Funnily enough I happened to be in Sainsbury’s yesterday afternoon and happened to notice that they had rinse aid sat next to a bunch of all-in-one type products. In fact they had a whole host of rinse aid but absolutely no explanation of what they were for and we all know what the instructions on the pack and in the machines are like. 🙄
But there again the supermarkets are interested in selling people stuff, even if they’ve no need for it and I suspect that the less information people have many will just buy things to try and solve a problem they don’t really have rather then ask or look for guidance. It cracks me up that there’s leaflets in all these stores flogging stuff that supermarkets didn’t sell a few years ago (like insurance and financial services) and leaflets on their non-GM foods but there’s absolutely no help whatsoever for any cleaning products that I’ve ever seen.
However research shows that people can’t be bothered with using the three components and that’s why these things are so popular but there’s also some people that just don’t bother to read the instructions and we never see them right? 😉
We too get plagued by dishwashers overfoaming due to rinse aid being used with 3 or 1-in-1 tabs and it’s just a case of education as you rightly say. Often people don’t believe you as well, I had one on the phone the other day with a Smeg DW, as the machine came with Finish 4-in-1 tabs and it had a rinse aid compartment. Of course there’s nothing about the use of detergent in the user manual for the customer to refer to.
Sadly a lot of the time between the appliance manufacturers and the detergent marketing machines, it appears to be a case of the blind leading the blind and to hang with the confusion it causes so long as the stuff they make sells more than the competition’s brand/s.
K.
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
Hi all
As I understand it during my distant training and recent viewing or water flow charts, hard water goes through the resin in to case every fill.
But as is happening all over my area ( v hard water ) washes fine with 3 in 1’s but over a period of 2-3 months the resin in the softner is chocking up because of no salt water back flush to clean it.I love doing sotner changes and blaming 3 in1’s ete. loads of profit 😉
The only way to clean a softner is to back flush with salt water. It still blocks up even with 3 in 1’s ete because of a 1 way valve in the softner.
Paul
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
Paul’s post adds partly toward my earlier comment with relation to the clean water side and the grey water side of a dishwashers function. Ion exchangers that are not charged with sodium regularly, do indeed quickly calcify and block if constantly subjected to high levels of calcium and magnesium.
I have not, so far, come across an ion exchanger that is so bad that it has to be replaced? Often using a dishwasher daily for 3 or 4 years, the ion exchanger unit will quickly recover once salt is added. Better still if the machine is converted to hot fill!!!! 😉
Oh yes, almost ALL dishwashers these days will work very well with a hot water supply (8 litres per minute and below 60 degrees C is just perfect 🙂 )
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
I’ve had problems with hot fill, on machines that fill while not pumping. These can get a surge on motor starting and flood out the corners of the door. Dishwashers that fill while pumping will not have this problem and can normally be operated fine on hot water – it also has the benefit of a much quicker wash.
Steve
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
I acquired a new diswasher recently and put my old Bosch E750 electronic to pastures new after 23+ years of sterling service. Now in the blurb that comes with new new tin box it states :-
new tin box wrote:Your SGS47E12 also detects 3 in 1 detergents, meaning that these combined detergent/rinse aid/salt tablets will be put to use most effectively.
😯 How’s it do that then? 😯
I guess Fairy Active Bursts are classed as “3 in 1”? So what ingredient (or gizmo in the machine?) in it tells my dishwasher to get to work more effectively?How does it know?
It seems to love the Fairy tabs I have to say, but I am tempted to sneak up on it and stick powder in the dispenser just for buggerance to see what happens? 😉
Re: Fairy Active Bursts
This is the “blurb” from Bosch”
3 in 1 detergent detection function
If combined detergent products (for example 3 in 1) are used, a bad drying result is obtained. In order to improve the drying function, a special program sequence with less water in the interim rinse cycles is started.
The rinse aid temperature is increased by 3 K for the 3 in 1 detergent detection function (as for intensive drying). With the saved water the heat exchanger in the dryer is filled a second time to improve the drying.
The special program sequence is activated if:
the electronics detect low rinse aid
the rinse-aid refill indicator is deactivated
The “intensive drying” additional function can still be selected, but it has no effect on the rinse-aid temperature.
The maximum temperature increase is 3 K.3 in 1 detergent
3 in 1 detergents have a range of use up to a water hardness of 21°cH (37°fH, 26°Clarke, 3,7mmol/l). It is not necessary to activate the water softening device up to 21°dH.
If the water hardness is more than 21°dH, the water softening device must be activated and the water hardness range must be adjusted to step 6.HTH
Greg
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