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Okay, now we can really talk…
This DASA meeting, I have grievious concerns about it.
This is of course on a political level as I’m good at that shit. We still do not have an answer on the associate membership given that they wanted to charge us full whack for 6 months at best, Sean if you call me or Kev we’ll explain that and if Dave reads this before getting home fuck off, you’re on holiday you twat! :rotfl:
Anyways, DASA will use this to their advantage there’s nothing surer than that, no problem there really. I don’t really have many axes to grind with DASA persay, I do have a problem with UKW and the members being used as pawns in a political game and, if anyone fucks with the agents, they go through me first.
So here’s what I propose we do…
We agree to the meeting as billed and see what they have to say and that means buttoning it a bit Kevin. 😉 As in we listen first, react after and keep each an other in check. In all honesty I really don’t expect much to come from it other than the rift to deepen as they seem to think that I/we are trying to compete with them, well… we might if we were playing in the same park, but we’re not.
I still say that DASA may be of use, so I don’t really want it killed as it serves no purpose really and it’s not on my “to-do list”. I do however stand by the statement that now is not DASA’s time and it has to accept that I’m afraid. So, back seat for now and, in all honesty, it’s of little concern in what we’re doing anyway other than the training thing to a degree, but then we’ve stolen the march there as usual and, when Dave returns and gets back into things, we’ll get cracking with that.
Next up is training really, we can kick ass on that if we want to, so let’s. 🙂
Sean you need brought up to speed on so many things and we really need to have another meeting without prying eyes and ears so what do you all say to a meet in Rotherham towards the end of the month? I know it’s a pain in the ass for everyone, even Kev who gets the stick from Bridie about us invading, but I think it’s needing doing.
Plus by then we should be in a better position to answer and have more info.
K.
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
When I spoke to Jason, back end of last week he told me that the meeting was off, as you had spoken to either him or Mark with regards UKW joining Dasa as associate members.
therefore you would be able to communicate directly to council at their meetings. I have to admit that it caught me on the back foot as I have been fighting a battle royal to get them to come cap in hand to UKW.
They were obligated to approach you, after I raised the proposition of all DASA members paying into UKW as subscribing members for the added value it would bring to their members as the vast majority of those in attendence at the last council meeting both associate and full members were of the confirmed belief that both organisations needed to work even more closley together.
Thats why I’ve been a pain in their arse by complaining that this as well as the vote that went along with it did not appear in the recored minitues of that meeting.
It is my belief that you should have left it as it was as UKW would have gained the qudos of being approached by DASA not the other way around.
To me it does’nt really matter who comes up with the goodies as long as they come. We all know that they are too slow to get anything done and when they do start to move they do not tell people what they are doing until the AGM which simply is’nt good enough.
The one thing that I do believe is that on one particular point I have to agree with somthing that Mark said and that is that “this industry is too small for us to be at one anothers throats”
UKW will continue to show by it’s deeds that it is far more effective at delivering the help and support that independant service providers need.
My only concern is that we dont alienate our intended future customers by being seen as the main detractors of DASA to who a lot of them still show strong loyalty for what ever reason god only knows.
Sibson was an incredible launch pad, we now have to capitalise on the gobsmacked expressions I saw on the majority of faces in the room.
The concilertry remarks made re Dasa in Kevins opening address showed a proffessional, inclusive and open approach Which tells me that we’ve finally got all the pieces in place.Sean
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
The position with Dasa is……..
Having asked if we could join as an associate member, Jason sent UKW an invoice for £250.00 +vat( a years membership) with the expiry date of 30th june 2005. I asked for a pro rata rate seeing as there were only 4 months left, to be told that there is no pro rata rate, and unofficially the renewal date could be stretched back to 1st November. And that £250.00 was cheap to join Dasa!
Ken and I decided to withdraw our membership application for the present and have adfvised Dasa we wikk re approach 1st July, to get full value for our membership fee.
Before withdrawing our application I did answer a (Jason) question that we as UKW would be happy to address the whole council not just a few members, to which Jason asked if we would then attend the whole council meeting allowing it to start at a normal time and not have two seperate meetings, to this I agreed.
We have not been told of any cancelled meeting nor have we had a response to an email asking for an agenda/topics as to why Dasa wanted to meet us.Kevin
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
Correct, I’m not paying a full year for a third of it, full stop!
This, in effect by the letter of the law, means that we have no right to attend a council meeting, only the AGM as guests. Methinks that DASA’s own rules work against it… AGAIN!
So it’s pretty much up in the air for now until Jason or Mark gets back to us.
We’re not at each others throats at all Sean, it’s just that if its not done right then there will be calls of a foul, just as that’s the way it is with DASA.
It’s just this simple, regardless of what DASA does or says we just get on with it, if they have a problem with that then too bad IMO.
K.
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
Right let’s do the maths. aprox 70 DASA members @ £60 p.a. per +vat member to sign up for twelve month subscription level membership of UKW.
= aprox £4,200 into the coffers of UKW.Not to be sneezed at. What they want to talk about is for you to list the added value you can bring to their members. Not to hard to do is it.
This is a win, win, situation as you will find that most serious players are members of both anyway so they will save themselves £60 per year.
It will introduce to UKW those who have been living under a rock for the last two years and show them that there is another organisation who are serious about bringing services that are despersatly needed to the trade.Ken I know that you are on a mission from god and want to do everything for free but just remember, this is money that has already been spent.
The only thing is that you are taking it from an organisation that is doing jack shit at the moment and moving it to one where it can do some good, whilst at the same time building up your list of full subscribing members.So you chuck them back a few hundred quid, what the hell, if you were to run this by John Hopwood you know what he would say. So take a leaf out of his book and be more of a pragmatist.
My only concern is that you have been runnin around like a blue arsed fly runnin’ yourself ragged for P&G.
I just hope to god that the deal they are offering is genuine one and that they are not just stringin’ you along and pickin’ your brains for idea’s that they could’nt dream up in a month of sunday’s.One thing they will have learnt from Sibson is that you have the ear of the trade, as the meeting was almost a who’s who directory of the industry.
If you want I’ll contact Jason or Mark to see if we can get the meeting back on and ask that they find an alternative for mr FATFUCK who’s authority to hold his present post in Dasa is questionable to say thre least
perhaps Pill Dill or Kevin Morrisey.What do you guy’s think ?
Sean
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
I think God is thinking of his reply….so i’ll let him reply.
However Sean……P&G are genuine, no doubt, at all.
Dasa, and extra members for us, we have covered. Quite honestly, we don’t need the subscriber subscription as it is the subscribers money, not ours, a fact lost on Dasa I think.
KevinPS…I’m all for meeting Dasa, if they want, no probs. I do want an agenda though so we can prepare.
Kevin
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
There’s no problem Sean and I don’t even really have a problem with Jason or Mark either, but they will do what’s best in their own interest which is a good thing as at least you can see what and why they do stuff, even if I don’t get it at times. Like getting back into NESN’s pants so quickly, but heh, it’s their call.
The loose canons are Walter and Scott, Ian Patterson, possibly Dave Pannell, the Levitts and increasingly, Neil as well. Politically there is good call to keep DASA as it is at the moment from the manufacturers and WPs etc. as it can be controlled whereas we cannot be and that’s the scary bit. As in, dangle some work/money in front of the aforementioned including Jason and Mark and Bob’s yer uncle, you just bought a DASA Council vote. This is the reason that the manufacturers et all are interested as well as the fact that some of the voices in DASA are influential within the trade to some extent and it is therefore prudent, for all the cost, to stay in touch. Exactly the same reasoning on the last part that I viewed UKW associate membership with.
In short, it’s politics.
As for the members thing, I do not disagree with you but I have to ask, what’s the bill going to be in the end? You see, I do not for a second believe that this will happen with no cost on some level, just what it is we’ve yet to see. You also have to remember that on the council there will be massive resistance to this happening.
You may as well know that I decided against paying to be in DASA for NWAR for another year as I just could not reconcile the cost to benefit ratio of it. My reasoning was that I had done a shitload of work for DASA over the past year or so, including all sorts as you well know and all they could do by way of a thank you is to hold out their hand for more money. Money, I will add, that they do not need since the removal of Chris as they have a surplus of funds right now. They haven’t even offered to recompence me for the cost of of the logo FFS which is, quite frankly, an insult.
So I am no longer a council member and I do not have access to the DASA forums as they kicked me out the other night. And even in doing that they didn’t even have the courtesy to send people an email to tell them.
I am not going to say anything on the subject unless asked or it crops up and I’m not going to make life hard for them, which I could easily do, as that’s not cricket. But let’s just say I’m less than impressed and I am only to acutely aware that there are those that are probably pretty joyful that I’m no longer privy to the info there.
As for the meeting, I’m more than happy to have it on the proviso’s given that an agenda is produced more than two weeks in advance and that FF ain’t there.
K.
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
Okay so the meeting looks like it will happen, fair enough. Sean, can you send me what you have so far on the agenda and I’ll scour it for you?
As to the post earlier today and last night etc in TWR, well I want the air cleared and I’d far rather be upfront and honest than skulk about. Also, if nobody else dares say it, I will.
If they take offence when it’s a quiet chat like that then really, what hope is there?
K.
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
On the presentation post at the DASA meeting in TWR, our own meeting will be before the AGM and a lot of the same people will be there, plus the info will be “out there” by then, possible overkill ?
Just a thought 😉
I’m more than happy to go to the UKW/DASA meeting, it’ll clear the air at the very least, in my view there is no air to clear but evidently from certain parties there is, so let’s do it and get it sorted.
Dave.
Dave, agreed on the last paragraph.
On the rest, it’s all abotu perception and impression. We’ve made the gesture, whether or not there’s anything new to say or report is irrelevant really. Point is, we’ve offered and we will do it if required to do so.
As to overkilll, no, re-enforcement. 😉
K.
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
You guy’s have got to remember that you are about two light years ahead of me with regards what is about to break. The meeting may prove to be surplus to requirements once the mail shot is out there and you can start to see the reaction to it.
I am not complaining as you have a commercial enterprise to protect and we have all seen that when news is handled badly or released before it is ready then considerable damage that can ensue.
My only motive wether it is accepted or not is to try keep both organisations talking and working together for the common good of the trade.
The biggest enemy we have no matter how good an idea is that most people are apathetic, you have to practically drag people kicking and screaming to take onboard ideas that are benificial to them.
A classic example is e-jobs where all the silly buggers have to do is to submit a few details to get free advertising and chargeable work in one stroke and the silly twats cant be bothered to fill out a form.
The reason is that they are more worried about what you might make than they themselves. Now before you shoot me down I know that you are making jack shit out of it at this point in time but I just give it as an illustration of the mind set of some of the people that UKW was set up to help.
For all it’s failings and they are many Dasa at the very least comprises of members who are willing to put their money where their mouth is and at least show a degree of committment to wanting to improve things.
That is not to say that there are some who see it as a way of being at the head of the line when there is the chance of any new work, Myself included.I keep banging on about the fact that more and more of the work out there seems to be corporate work for any firm with more that two engineers and that ratio seems to be increasing year on year.
UKW should therefore have a sphere of influence within the trade association of the trade from which it sprung. It would be far easier to change things from within than on the outside.
You somtimes have to take a step back and realise that it looks a little strange that at a time when most of the work providers and more latley most of the manufacturers, seem to be applying for associate membership that UKW has yet to join and I’m sorry but just because you have been asked for £250 which is the normal rate for an associate members even halfway through the year. This is peanuts, I think as have you, in the past that this figure should be double, you see your rejection of this demand as being frugal, most will see it as being petty.
The time will also arrive that when UKW starts to make money from all the hard work that has gone into it (and rightly so IMHO) Then its motives will be called into question and used against it. You have already reached the point where you have had to go VAT registered.
I point these things out now, so that we have developed a response to be ready for it when it happens.
I have already tried to explain that some in Dasa are a lot more thin skinned than you seem to realise, the name calling that goes on in the W.R. that you see as knockabout banter is not taken that way I can assure you. We really dont need it and it is part of the reason that we are not gettin’ the traffic we once had.
I am the first to say that UKW plays a crucial role in improving the lot of the indi in our trade but let’s no think that we are omnipitant and therefore incapable of working with others who may seem to have less of a vision of how things can be improved. Remember us dull and ignorant people have our story too.
I know I always seem to be the fly in the ointment but if all i did was to blow rainbows up your arse then I dont think I would be doin’ my job.
The meeting is set for 9.00 a.m before the council meeting I’ll post more details as get them confirmed.
Sean
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
Sean, nice post.
May I point out that Corgi has a pro rata joining fee, so do many organisations. Why not Dasa? Why some might think our action “petty” speaks volumes about themselves.
Dasa now has better communications using its own site, there is to my knowledge a council forum. Has Jason posted that I requested a Pro rata rate for UKW seeing as there was only four months of the year left?
Did Jason take advice from his fellow council members, also solving the question for anyone else who joins after the yearly commencment date? Or did he do nothing at all? Therefore the opportunity to clear up a problem has passed and the status quo maintained within Dasa, no-one does anything, apart from suggest we might be “petty”, surley decisions can be made using the forums of your site, instead of waiting for a scheduled meeting.
Jason has said membership is for a year, why can’t we take the action we have. Its Dasa who fail to grasp reality not UKW.
As for name calling, I can’t recall having called Dasa names, it does stand out though that members of the council are not what they seem, when the chips are down. I honestly think that UKW does not need Dasa, however the trade does need a trade association and Dasa is sadly lacking in this department, I also lay the blame for that on its leaders, the officers, for lack of vision and trust. There’s more to that also, where is the future when Walter, Scott and Patterson are in the frame, fraid the association is too nice to arseoles and gives them too much say.
KevinRe: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
Yeah Sean, nice post and loads in it to answer as well.
As Kev says, when push comes to shove, we don’t really need DASA and IMHO it’s too wrapped up in it’s own internal politics and conflicts to be bothering about. We have a clear focus on what has to be done, how to do it and we’re a good ways towards delivering a shitload of it to the trade. Where’s DASA? How will DASA ever change under the current set of policies in place?
You forget that CH spent years building a little castle and they have, since removing him, done very little other than talk about change. Delivered any, no they have not.
In so far as I’m concerned, it’s their bed, they made it and they can lie in it.
If they want a bit of help from us then fine, I’m not going to do anything to jepordise DASA but I’m not going to go out my way to save it either.
In the end it’s about 10 people in DASA that actually we need to watch and that is becoming less and less relevant in the real world as time passes. The more I get comment the more I feel that they will never achieve anything for the good of the trade. Why? Simple, they are too concerned with their own agendas and well being to be concerning themselves with the needs of others. Sadly, a trade association is supposed to serve the needs of it’s members at large, not just an elitist few which DASA is doing.
And there’s why it’s viewed as an old boys club.
UKW has more influence with manufacturers etc. than you know. You are totally unaware of a lot of work that Kevin, Dave and I have done on a few people’s behalf. You also don’t know about me placing engineers for OEM service as well as independents. But you see, we have no need to go about shouting that “so and so” is talking to us to gain acceptance or indeed credence.
I mean just look at who was at Sibson Sean…
Electrolux
De Longhi
CDA
NESN
ISDAL
CDSL
P&G
MerloniAnd that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head! DASA have been struggling to get attendance like we had to an AGM let alone a bi-annual meet or a council meeting.
But we don’t have to go about shouting about it and I think we’re more proffessional than that. But DASA is being left behind in many respects.
However that aside, just look at the numbers Sean, DASA has 70 members. They have not got nationwide cover by any stretch of the imagintion. They are highly politicised.
There are 4500+ companies out there carrying out repairs and only 70 are in DASA, what does that say to you? It certainly does not represent the trade, it simply can’t claim that as its membership is way too small to even consider that statement to be true. Even UKW doesn’t as, at best, we have 10{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the trade looking.
I have to say that I agree with Kevin on the membership thing. They are the one’s being awkward we simply want value for money, the sum of money is really irrespective and not the point at all.
As for the name calling you’re referring to my jibe with Jason I assume? In that case, TBH, if they can’t take a little joke in a private forum over it then really, what’s the point of continuing on any level? It says to me that they’re so far up their own arse that there’s little point in even talking to them.
Apart from which Phil got the points made it appears. But then he’s not trying to run DASA really.
All this shite is why I wanted to just leave it be and stay well away from DASA and, the more I hear, the less I want to know as I really don’t have the time and quite honestly, can’t be arsed, with these silly, petty little games and pandering to certain egos. And that’s all it is in the end.
K.
Re: First Post In An Undiscovered Country
Thanks for the responses guy’s.
It’s just that I am trying to get across the point that we have to somtimes work with people, who in other circumstances we would’nt piss on if they were on fire.
A few classic examples are :- even though you guy’s suffered badly under N.e.s.n. still they are invited along (and in all fairness attend) to UKW meetings.
At the last meeting at Sibson I was sat next to a guy from Merloni. A manufacturer who nearly cost me my business when they simply up and walked away. Yet I was the one defending him in the room when he was getting all the flack for decisions his bosses were responsible for.
We all know it’s not a perfect world and niether are some of the people we have to work with. I know I’m a twat when it comes to repeatin’ meself, but here I go again…… Kev’s opening address at Sibson was nothing short of insperational I hope to fuck that somebody thought to record it in our minutes of the meeting. I dont mind telling you that it made me feel proud to be a small part of what was being presented but it’s not enough to simply expound well recieved platitudes. They also have to be meant.
It seem’s somtimes that dasa as far as UKW is concerned, is viewed as public enemy number one. Let’s just remember that it is only just over a year since it fucked off Chris Hayter who was an absolute control freak who did even less for the organisation than the poor twats in charge of it now.
To be fair let’s just review what has happened in that year.1) The Rochford report was commissioned and reported at AGM
2) The constitution is under review
3) The code of practice is also under review and appears on the next agenda
4) In the Rochford report Dasa was charged to make stronger links with manufacturers. Since the AGM not only have we talked to Amdea But we have managed to get most of them to sign up as associate members. Whatever their motives this did not happen when C.H. was in control
5) Dasa had a well attended and interesting AGM at York With an excellent corgi situation overview presented by a guest training firm. They even had a work provider making appologies from the floor as to how members had been treated in the past.
6) They have commissioned a directory of trade members and associated firms to be compilled.
7) Orbit was relaunched
8) National Qualification organisational bodies meetings have been attended.
9) Approaches to UKW for a closer working relationship have been made.
meeting planned for April 05Now you ask me is that enough ? or is the speed at which it happens good enough ? The answer to both is a definate no.
But even you guy’s have to admit it is a vast improvment on what went on before when C.H. stymeed anything from happening just in case it meant any more work for him, even though that twat was being paid.
A lot of what has already been done is as a direct result of your input with ideas and assistance but you cannot expect their to be a dasa rule for ukw and a different one for everybody else. As you are the first ones to bash them over the head with their own rule book and well they know it.
To change the billing arrangements will require a proposal to be put to council and voted on before it can be amended. This cannot be done on the whim of an officer or even Mark himself.
Remember at Sibson you stated that it was UKW’s intention to join dasa as an associate member. Can you not see that they will be asking questions at the AGM when they see that this has not been done because you were quibiling over a few months payments, It wont do too much for UKW’s creability will it ?
Perhaps this oversight is a proposal that UKW can put forward to council when they join. When they can then show that they have suffered from it themselves, as victims always tend to get more support than critics in my experience.
Sean
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