heat pump tumble dryer

[Martin]

Re: heat pump tumble dryer

mazda609 wrote:What PDF file? I can’t find the size information in the PDF file.

Indeed not, no measurements are given.

Martin wrote:and presumably contained within a 600wide 600deep by 820 high cabinet

It was only my presumption as such a device would have to be contained within these parameters to enter the UK domestic market.

…which I believe would be an impossiblity.

Martin

[kwatt]

Re: heat pump tumble dryer

Martin’s referring to the standard Euro Box as we refer to it, 60x60x850 which is a standard European size that any freestanding washer etc. fits into. Any other size and it becomes a niche appliance generally.

K.

[admin]

Hi – I am still hear and reading your replies to the various posts on this subject.

Tumble driers aren’t just going to go away because people don’t think that they are environmentally friendly enough.

I wondered if anyone has experience of similar technology step changes in the market. I am thinking in particular of the increase in availability of and decrease in price of frost-free fridge freezers. Five years ago this was the premium technology which was available at the top of the price range, but now it is common place at affordable prices. Can anyone shed light on how this happened?

Thanks – have a good weekend

[Martin]

icemaiden21 wrote:Hi – I am still hear and reading your replies to the various posts on this subject.

Wow! is this some kind of in depth research project of some kind going on here? Compiling a thesis for a Uni degree or diploma are we?

Icemaiden21 wrote:I wondered if anyone has experience of similar technology step changes in the market. I am thinking in particular of the increase in availability of and decrease in price of frost-free fridge freezers. Can anyone shed light on how this happened?

Purely supply v’s demand has created this situation, consumers have latched on to the advantages of frost free and the market simply took off. The same is happening in the Brown Goods industry with the advent of Plasma and LCD technology.

Martin

[kwatt]

Re: heat pump tumble dryer

Hi Icemaiden,

I often remind customers of the following…

Twenty years ago a “cheap” 1000rpm washer would have cost you about £300-350 for a Zanussi, roughly. Today you can buy a 1200rpm Zanussi in comet for £179.99, how do you think that a manufacturer beats not only the price of twenty years ago but also the effect of twenty years inflation to boot? In other words the appliance is, in real terms, worth less than about 25{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of it’s value of twenty years ago.

There is no doubt that there are various advances in manufacturing systems, technology and methodology but can it really save that much?

Bear in mind that, like a car, our stuff is primarily mechanical in nature and secondary electric or electronically driven and I will grant that the cost of electronic control systems has dropped due to the lowering of production costs. But the raw materials to make a big metal box essentially I shouldn’t think have dropped that much.

Now add in the high cost of stainless steel, the fad that’s been in vogue for the past five years os so and still, the prices drop. Copper hasn’t come down in price either, another major raw material. Neither has plastics, nor metal alloys.

How do you think that these prices are accomplished?

There’s enough information there for you to answer your own question. 😉

As to “breakthrough” technologies and the old eco-friendly argument, well there’s not really a lot you can do with the technologies if customers are unprepareed to pay for it and I do sympathise with the manufacturers on that front. As to the eco arguments, I’ve not seen too many that actually stand up under scrutiny.

K.

[admin]

http://www.schulthess.ch/english/produk … ?prodno=17

this is another real heat pump dryer

[kwatt]

Looks to be, also looks to be a commercial product where I would think the economy of scale comes in to teh equation making it a different proposition. I can’t find a price on it but the nearest vented dryer in teh range I could find was >€6000, so not cheap I shouldn’t think.

K.

[admin]

Re: heat pump tumble dryer

With regard to tumble driers, the ‘consumer’ doesn’t really know he or she has the choice of different – more eco friendly – technology. If we changed the subject from heat pumps (which not many readers here knew about) to gas tumble driers what do readers on this forum think is stopping people having them? Is it cost of installation or extra pipework or that they don’t trust gas? Or that they don’t know they can have them at all? Is the success or failure just down to marketing?

Cheers to all who have been reading/contributing.

[kwatt]

Same equation icemaiden, the cost to buy and install exceeds the the savings that a typical family would make over the lifespan of the machine on top of the disadvantages in installation. Therefore, for most people unless they dry an awful lot, there’s little (or in most cases I expect) no advantage to be had in terms of cost saving or ecologically.

Are you working on a thesis or something?

K.

[admin]

Re: heat pump tumble dryer

Hi Kwatt

I’d better come ‘clean’. I work sometimes on behalf of the Defra Market Tranformation Programme (http://www.mtprog.com ). I have been asking about heat pump tumble driers and gas ones trying to get a view on what the forum members think prevents the adoption of new technology.

What this forum has concluded (correct me if I’m wrong) I think is that people (I hate the word consumers) are motivated by cost of appliance at point of sale and perceived ‘benefits’ of any features. They don’t rate eco-friendliness above a certain level if it becomes ‘too expensive’. So they will go along with AAA rated washing machines because they are not more expensive than the rest of the offerings. However, they start to complain once performance is compromised, including programme length. Companies are held back from bringing on new technology by initial start up costs, and lack of confidence in successful sales.

So then, that still leaves the possibility of other incentives such as VAT tax reductions or subsidies (either to consumers or companies) for eco friendly options. Or more legislation or voluntary agreements to restrict the availability of higher energy consuming products.

What I’d like to see is the Dyson of the tumble drying world. Something that takes the public’s imagination, gives them a product they perceive as being a leap ahead of the old one, and moves the market completely. Of course Dyson vacs are not a good example because they have higher wattages than others and may lead to increased energy use while cleaning. But that may change when the vacs energy label comes along.

Thanks – Icemaiden21

[Martin]

Re: heat pump tumble dryer

icemaiden21 wrote: consumers) are motivated by cost of appliance at point of sale and perceived ‘benefits’ of any features. They don’t rate eco-friendliness above a certain level if it becomes ‘too expensive’.

You’re right, that thought never comes into the equation in the majority of ‘consumers’ minds. Price and recognised brand names are in the forefront of their thought process every time and dictates the current buying trends.

“Eco-friendly” and “Energy Saving” come way down their list in favour of “….under £200!” with a top name badge on the front. Reliability is compromised of course every time, sadly more so nowadays than ever before but that is the risk they are willing to take. The average thought process being “….well if it lasts 2 or 3 years then thats fine!”

I applaud your ideals, and I wish it could materialise into something tangible for us all to benefit through better made products that are both energy saving and eco-friendly. But I fear the ‘die has been cast’ and until legislation is firmly put in place to put a stop to all this, we are on a downward spiral 😥

Martin

[kwatt]

Re: heat pump tumble dryer

You’ve got it and not got it. 😉

essentially the public are sold on being eco-friendly because you have some very vocal minorities out there that scream about it and, whislt I do not disagree with the motive I do question some of the crazy implementations of the notion by the likes of both EU and UK government. What happens after the dust settles is that large manufacturers will either do one of two things…

a. Alter the marketing strategy to “sell” the new “features” or the fact that their appliances/goods comply with the legislation.

or

b. Find a way around it to comply and, should that affect the performance and/or results then so be it.

Option “b.” it seems is often used in conjunction with option “a.” in our industry and, to that end, I have to conclude that since there has been a terrible degradation in performance since it’s introduction, that the EU labelling system (in so far as kitchen appliances are concerned) have actually ended up becoming counter productive.

In the other thread I outlined the basic reasons for that but I’m obviously not going to go massively in depth on the subject here and bore people to death with the message. If DEFRA or any other government department wishes to talk to us about this then they are more than welcome to do so and I will expand upon the reasoning.

However, I hope to be publishing some, if not all, the articles on this subject within the next few weeks.

K.

[admin]

Re: heat pump tumble dryer

As I’ve posted in the washing machine forum, anyone with a vested interest in domestic product performance is more than welcome to contact the DEFRA MTP using the form at this address http://www.mtprog.com/Contact.aspx

We particularly welcome comments backed by evidence that show the negative or positive impact on our policies to reduce energy use. The drive to reduce energy and water use isn’t going to go away, but we must assess risks to that policy.

Best wishes – Icemaiden

[admin]

Re: heat pump tumble dryer

icemaiden21 wrote:As I’ve posted in the washing machine forum, anyone with a vested interest in domestic product performance is more than welcome to contact the DEFRA MTP using the form at this address http://www.mtprog.com/Contact.aspx

We particularly welcome comments backed by evidence that show the negative or positive impact on our policies to reduce energy use. The drive to reduce energy and water use isn’t going to go away, but we must assess risks to that policy.

Best wishes – Icemaiden

Hi: Icemaiden:

I think the heat pump clothes dryer problem is a complex problem to answer. I will try to add my comments because i am working on this product.

1. How many energy the heat pump clothes dryer can save?
Right now they only can save 50{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of energy. I think the heat pump clothes dryer can save another 50{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of energy using current technologies. In the future it is even possible to save another 50{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}. The current heat pump dryer is not properly designed and only can save 50{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}.

2. Why it is so expensive?
Current heat pump dryer are very expensive. It is not normal because the cheapest air conditioner costs about less than $100. Normally you can spend $400 to buy an very good air conditioner. The reason is heat pump dryer has to overcome a lot of problem because of their bad design.

3. Are there any problem for heat pump clothes dryer?
I think the most difficult problem is lint. They will add to heat transfer and decrese the heat transfer capability quickly. It is also very difficult to clean up. Current heat pump dryer can’t avoid this problem.

So I think you may need to contact the manufactuer such as AEG (they once producs one real dryer but stop sell now) and other company. You will know if my comments are right.

I think the dryer problem is very interest. Why?
US, Europe, japan, china (big city) ‘s washer saturate rate is near 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}.
As for dryer, US is near 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}, Europe is 29{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}, Japan is 25{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}, china (big city) is below 5 or 3 or 1.

The key is that the dryer will use a lot of energy and clothes line will use zero energy.

To solve this problem the dryer’s energy consumption has to be greatly reduced.

I will say it is possible and easy. The heat pump technology is one to make it possible but not eay way.

I just hope those information are useful for you.

[clever dicky]

Re: heat pump tumble dryer

Hi, came across this thread by chance looking for heater element info for a second hand hotpoint (what crap) and had to say hello and offer my ha’penneth worth. Hope its ok.

Until recently I’ had spent a ‘few’ years designing building repairing, and generally slaving for different firms involved in commercial and industrial dehumidifiers.
First I must say that heatpump tumble dryers are definitely the way forward commercially but not necessarily for domestic use. Heatpumps generally are VERY efficient when running but do take a while to get going. They use a lot of power to get the process started because you also need a high heat source (not only in terms of temperature but mainly quantity) to get the process going to evaporate the water vapour. This really negates the benefits but commercially the trade off with time saved is worth it. Once that water vapour has condensed giving up its latent heat energy and adding to the refrigeration process then it becomes viable. Down sides are many, and believe me I know. The biggest is the mechanical damage caused. Because there is little absolute control, once the process starts it can tend to cascade. Which is good for the process and time scales but I still have scars on my arms I got from burns off the very high temperature condenser coils and pipes while working on them. Basically because given that the refrigerant temperature equates to pressure of refrigerant you might imagine that some serious pressures are normal. I don’t have a comparator with me but 400psig was common using R22. Compressors did not last.
These problems would be exactly the same albeit on a smaller scale for a domestic dryer. Believe or not there was a time I considered patenting the idea / process (before Philips/ whirlpool) but just didn’t consider it could really work without millions on research and workshops which I’m not ever likely to have.
However the basic principles are unchanged from years of heat pump use way before my time and are still very much in use in many factories today drying sweets and bricks. My favourite (in physics terms) was a system in a factory drying pallets, a warehouse full at a time. It used half a dozen prestcold compressors running R114 with chamber (Drying area) up to 90’C. Humidity 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}. You couldn’t stand in front of an open hatch door because of the heat. The gases (water vapour) was laced with so many corrosive chemicals from the drying wood that only large pipe Aluminium evaporator coils could resist them. Each run took a week and often two or three weeks at a time.
Imagine trying to explain that to the missus.

[Author]

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