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Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
Not trying to be funny here but, I can just see half or more of you lot trying to figure out why a machine won’t connect to a antique 802.11a router or WAP or how it can’t get an IP from a DHCP server or that it can’t been seen outside as the NAT on the LAN is screwed up. Or that it can’t see the WAP as there’s a brick wall with steel beams in it in the way. Or it’s in a metal shed acting as a Faraday cage, aka a garage!Maybe you will spend an hour configuring the customer’s firewall/router, I certainly wouldn’t under my current pricing setup. Simply connect to a hotspot on your phone to ensure the appliance is working, demonstrate this to the customer and make your choice whether you offer further help on a separate basis or walk away having proved the appliance is not faulty.
Right now when I determine the customer’s floor is at fault for the appliance being noisy, I don’t offer to rip it up and fix it for them, I’ve done my job and it’s up to them to deal with the floor. I don’t see this being any different, most of what you are suggesting is not a fault with the appliance itself, it’s their local setup so it’s your choice whether you are comfortable helping further.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
But will it send you a message that it’s on fire or just say the program is finished ?.
Whirlpool have been advising customers that an appliance is safe to use but not to be left unattended so why are manufacturers going down the route of remotely controlling them.
All this is doing is adding another risk to any householders of fires in the home and in a lot of cases only the kids will know how to use it.
Bob
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
SAMURI wrote:But will it send you a message that it’s on fire or just say the program is finished ?.
Whirlpool have been advising customers that an appliance is safe to use but not to be left unattended so why are manufacturers going down the route of remotely controlling them.
It’s not like they are telling you not to leave their fridge/freezers unattended, they are telling you this about a specific appliance that has a history of catching fire. Do you switch off your wifi when you go out? If not, why should a fridge with wifi suddenly be an extra fire risk when you go out? I’d suggest it’s unlikely many tumble dryers with elements are likely to end up with wifi, it’s more likely to be the higher end heat pump dryers and those don’t have the same high chance of heat/fluff fire potential combination.
SAMURI wrote:
and in a lot of cases only the kids will know how to use it.These are normal appliances that have the option of wifi if you want to use it over and above the normal functionality so it doesn’t stop anyone knowing how to use it. It’s not a case of having to program it every time and it’s not like you need to do anything with the wifi to open the fridge door and take the milk out. The advanced features will be used by the “kids” and the appliance is used by everyone else the exact same as they use them now.
Technology cannot ever be limited by older people not understanding it, otherwise we never advance.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
LothianDomestics wrote:Technology cannot ever be limited by older people not understanding it, otherwise we never advance.
I understand it just fine.
I also understand customers and, I understand that whether it’s the appliance at fault or not they’ll chance it and blame that anyway. Explaining to many that it’s not your problem… have fun with that.
To demonstrate where I’m coming from here, I have a home that is hugely automated, with fully automatic motion sensing lighting, remotely controllable as well as heating, multiple servers and so forth so, understanding the technologies involved and so forth is not any issue to me whatsoever. I built it and programmed a ton of it. And, I know it can break and, can be a bit of a pig to track down where problems lie.
The tech in the MAJAP sector is, to be candid, not exactly bleeding edge stuff.
What I have yet to see is a sensible use case for a connected product in the MAJAP sector.
I mean so far we’ve got the it pings you one its done. I mean, whoo hoo.. what a massive advance for technology as we know it! 😉
Or, stick a big screen on it, why?
Or take photos of the fridge that’s stuffed so you can see the inside of your fridge whilst you’re down at Tesco. Again, why?
For the repairer they might think it great, they cost more so people will be more inclined to repair them and, that’s a fair enough train of thought… if people buy them of course and buy into the ecosystem which I doubt.
But let’s stay they do and there’s loads out there.
How are you going to repair them? Where are you going to get the tech info from to even start diagnostics on them as, huge swathes are extremely restricted? Even if you do it under warranty are you getting higher rates for the extra time it will consume?
Hell we can’t get tech now for Samsung, LG, Whirlpool, BSH and more, all the ones leading the charge here.
It may well not be bleeding edge tech but, if how you diagnose and repair is all hidden behind smoke and mirrors and in a walled garden requiring specific hardware keys, dedicated support hardware (laptop/tablet) or restricted routines then you’re pretty much stuffed if you’ve not got access to that when it comes to repairs.
Might be great if your employed or contracted by X, Y or Z maker to do it, completely useless to everyone else. And that, I consider to me monopolistic and highly restrictive trading practice that should be outlawed as it makes a mockery of the notion that there’s a free market. If it’s restricted in any way, it isn’t a free market.
New tech is all well and good, I’m all too often one of the nutters that is known as an “early adopter” but even I simply cannot see any reason at all that this is good or makes any kind of sense really. And I mean for anyone really, the repairers or customers the only party that might benefit (maybe) is the makers.
All that before we even get started on security, privacy concerns and we’ve only just skimmed the surface of the challenges around repairing them.
But heh, whatever floats your boat I guess.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
I understand it just fine.I do as well so I don’t see a problem with explaining why something doesn’t work when they think it should once I find it’s caused by local conditions. It’s already part of my job for warranty and non-warranty calls, this is just an extension to that.
kwatt wrote:
I also understand customers and, I understand that whether it’s the appliance at fault or not they’ll chance it and blame that anyway. Explaining to many that it’s not your problem… have fun with that.I currently visit appliances under warranty (including internet enabled) and tell customers that certain faults are not with the appliance, so I honestly can’t see why you think it will suddenly be much harder for a non-warranty visit to tell them the same. Under warranty they are not paying and most people expect everything including misuse to be covered, out of warranty if you show them that you can connect to a local hotspot fine and as long as you understand the basic technology (which is not appliance/manufacturer specific) then you explain that it’s local conditions. Setup a working relationship with a local computer tech if you don’t want to deal with it yourself and refer any non-appliance faults over to them. If you know what you are doing, it’s another potential income stream fixing routers/firewalls to allow these appliances to connect.
I get people telling me all the time their floor can’t be the cause because they’ve “always had a washing machine there” or they’ve “always had a fridge in their garage” so ambient temperature can’t be the cause. They’ve “never had a ripped door seal” or they “always cram things into every space in a frost free” so it has to be the appliance at fault. What do you do just now if the appliance is not faulty and it’s caused by local conditions?
kwatt wrote:
What I have yet to see is a sensible use case for a connected product in the MAJAP sector.I mean so far we’ve got the it pings you one its done. I mean, whoo hoo.. what a massive advance for technology as we know it! 😉
Or, stick a big screen on it, why?
Or take photos of the fridge that’s stuffed so you can see the inside of your fridge whilst you’re down at Tesco. Again, why?
There are plenty of people who don’t see a need for an internet connected phone. I’m sure there are a huge amount of people in this forum who see no practical use for the automation you already have available in your home. This is about convenience.
Ping when it’s done? – Saves me having to keep checking to see when it’s done. It also relays other information such as what part of the cycle it’s at, what time it is likely to be completed. When we have home robots, they could be linked to tell it to empty the machine and get on with the ironing. 🙂
Big screen? – How many people have to-do lists on their fridge? What better time to add items to a shopping list than when you use the last one?
See the fridge while you are at Tesco – I’ve seen this technology in use and I think it’s brilliant. That’s not to say I don’t see limitations, but these ideas need to get adopted to evolve over time.
Further down the line there is even the potential that a customer could give you a one-time access key to remotely access their appliance, meaning you could pre-diagnose a lot of faults without/before visiting the actual appliance. Things like usage logs would potentially be invaluable for some difficult to diagnose issues if they went that way as well. Once the technology is widely adopted, it means they can justify spending a lot more expanding the capabilities.
kwatt wrote:
For the repairer they might think it great, they cost more so people will be more inclined to repair them and, that’s a fair enough train of thought… if people buy them of course and buy into the ecosystem which I doubt.But let’s stay they do and there’s loads out there.
How are you going to repair them? Where are you going to get the tech info from to even start diagnostics on them as, huge swathes are extremely restricted? Even if you do it under warranty are you getting higher rates for the extra time it will consume?
Hell we can’t get tech now for Samsung, LG, Whirlpool, BSH and more, all the ones leading the charge here.
It may well not be bleeding edge tech but, if how you diagnose and repair is all hidden behind smoke and mirrors and in a walled garden requiring specific hardware keys, dedicated support hardware (laptop/tablet) or restricted routines then you’re pretty much stuffed if you’ve not got access to that when it comes to repairs.
Hell we can’t get tech now for Samsung, LG, Whirlpool, BSH and more, all the ones leading the charge here.
Unfortunately that is the business we are in and unless you want to try and force them all to release the information to independents, that’s not going to change. There will be a lot of information that finds it’s way into the public domain just as it has already for certain faults, I don’t see that changing and you already have a major coverage here of warranty repairers who do have access to the information. There are going to be times when you can’t repair certain faults and have to refer them back to the manufacturer, if that’s what’s needed then it’s all you can do.
As for the costs under warranty, I don’t see why this technology is automatically assumed to add extra time for diagnosis. In a lot of cases, it adds the potential for more in-depth diagnostics to become available further down the line on a lot of machines such as sensor readings etc that you can’t access just now without stripping the machines down. Replacing a tub or drum is still going to take longer than most of these repairs, especially when a lot of the ones out just now are simply swapping a component or 2 that is no more difficult than swapping a pressure switch.
kwatt wrote:
Might be great if your employed or contracted by X, Y or Z maker to do it, completely useless to everyone else. And that, I consider to me monopolistic and highly restrictive trading practice that should be outlawed as it makes a mockery of the notion that there’s a free market. If it’s restricted in any way, it isn’t a free market.It’s really no different to Miele does just now with their appliances, yet I still regularly see independents recommending them and I honestly cannot get my head around that.
kwatt wrote:
New tech is all well and good, I’m all too often one of the nutters that is known as an “early adopter” but even I simply cannot see any reason at all that this is good or makes any kind of sense really. And I mean for anyone really, the repairers or customers the only party that might benefit (maybe) is the makers.All that before we even get started on security, privacy concerns and we’ve only just skimmed the surface of the challenges around repairing them.
Over time the technology is going to have to come into line with security/privacy concerns. That’s unfortunately out of your control at present and lies at the feet of the manufacturers.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:You’re obviously sold on the idea totally.
We’ll agree to disagree.
K.
I’m not totally sold on any idea to the point I don’t see any drawbacks, I just think you are looking too much into some of the issues.
Im a great believer in not sitting still expecting things to stay the same. I see the challenge of dealing with these changes but I don’t think it’s going to be a showstopper for many businesses here.
In the end, even if this is introduced into every single appliance, I’d guess the total repairs related to the connectivity side of things are going to be very very small, which is certainly true with my current experience of these appliances we see.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
Right now I am setting my first new smart TV and whilst I am impressed by the technical spec I can’t help thinking “Does anyone actually use all this stuff just to watch TV and movies?”
Good practice though for when I encounter my first smart fridge.
Steve.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
I have many issues with IoT products, many not even in the MAJAP sector as most are next to useless and/or pointless. They deliver little to no real world benefit to consumers. For a number, the contrary is true, they can in fact be detrimental.
I am very concerned about the security of them and by extension the safety of them. Especially so when you couple that with the limited (if any) benefits that are promised.
Whizz bang, look what I can do and a month or two later half the stuff will ever be used on many I expect given the limited feature set and poor use case. But, they’re still connected, can still be compromised.
This was displayed in stunning fashion only a few weeks where devices like these used as a botnet took down a chunk of the net…
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6027 … -internet/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2016 … /92507806/
Not fanciful. Not rhetoric. Not scaremongering.
Poor security, poor long term support and so forth, it will happen again, nothing surer.
Yes I agree, technology should advance and I’ve no truck with that whatsoever but there are a number of instances where adding tech, often just for the sake of it, only serves to complicate things and make them compromised. I think connected appliances are such.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
This was displayed in stunning fashion only a few weeks where devices like these used as a botnet took down a chunk of the net…https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6027 … -internet/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2016 … /92507806/
Not fanciful. Not rhetoric. Not scaremongering.
I understand the security concerns but I don’t see this as a reason to totally discount the technology though. The potential is there to release these while being secure and over time that will happen.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
Thus far the history teaches otherwise.
Failure to update firmwares, cannot be done on many and cannot be done by many owners all with the risk of bricking the device.
Samsung fridges among others, already seen.
Compromised services, no longer supported. Already seen on numerous smart products including a raft of smart TVs and Samsung IoT fridges. Reported by Which? as well as on here.
Poor security and some want to launch shopping services! No way would I put CC details into any of these things, like ever. They’re far too insecure.
For many the only way to update them appears to be swapping out the chipset in them so, cost to consumer as the manufacturer won’t pony up for it I expect. New module/s in effect.
Do I trust that many manufacturers take this seriously or are likely to, not even slightly as to date there’s no evidence at all to say that they do, plenty to say they don’t.
In my view then, asking people to work on something that is possibly fatally flawed out the gate in an area that they’re not comfortable or skilled to do is a bad, bad plan. Cheap plan perhaps though if you can get a bunch of donkey’s to go do it for next to nothing though as they won’t get network and IT techs for the rates they pay a lowly appliance repairer.
Maybe they’re not so stupid eh?
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
In my view then, asking people to work on something that is possibly fatally flawed out the gate in an area that they’re not comfortable or skilled to do is a bad, bad plan. Cheap plan perhaps though if you can get a bunch of donkey’s to go do it for next to nothing though as they won’t get network and IT techs for the rates they pay a lowly appliance repairer.Maybe they’re not so stupid eh?
K.
Network techs would be overkill for these repairs as we are in most cases talking about swapping out a component rather than actually repairing or even properly diagnosing anything. You wouldn’t specifically send out a specialist in board repair to a washing machine as it’s easier to swap it out and I don’t see this as any different. I’d guess a lot of it as they get more advanced will also be factory resetting and hoping the customer has backed it up.
I really would be very surprised if more than a few percent of all jobs were related to the connectivity side of things in the future.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
I do see where you’re coming from but, how would you know that with no access to technical info or training?
But in any event even if you do gain access to that, is what you’re saying that upskilling is of no benefit as there’s no financial incentive to do so and, that being the case why bother to?
Or is it just a case of the same old, same old where the repairers are expected to play parts bingo until the get lucky?
From what you state in that last post, that’s exactly what’s happening no diagnosis, no understanding just swap bits till you strike it lucky.
For me, that’s not even remotely professional as all you become is a glorified parts fitter. No need for anyone qualified at all, may as well just send bits to the punters and let them do that, you’re out a job.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
The reliability or otherwise of these devices doesn’t bother me, the totally non existent security does. As mentioned in many articles most of these devices have an admin/password that is simply admin/password and cannot be altered. Now anyone tech and security savvie would know how to protect these devices but 99{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of users won’t.
In a test run by a major AV security firm last week they connected an internet enabled kettle ( I kid you not, a bloody kettle ) within less than one hour it had been high jacked by hackers and loaded with malicious code.
Even though I will admit I am not in the first flush of youth I have had a long term interest in technology of all shades, having cut my teeth on a BBC B micro (Acorn) computer over 34 years ago. There have been many innovations in that time and I have to say that the internet connected domestic appliance is one the the more pointless and needless ones.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
But in any event even if you do gain access to that, is what you’re saying that upskilling is of no benefit as there’s no financial incentive to do so and, that being the case why bother to?Upskilling is necessary because the tech needs to be able to determine if the fault is actually with the appliance and if it isn’t, explain why to the customer. If they don’t have the knowledge, they can’t do the job properly. They don’t need anywhere near the knowledge of a specialist network engineer though unless they are going to handle problems with the customer’s setup but that is not appliance related.
kwatt wrote:
Or is it just a case of the same old, same old where the repairers are expected to play parts bingo until the get lucky?From what you state in that last post, that’s exactly what’s happening no diagnosis, no understanding just swap bits till you strike it lucky.
For me, that’s not even remotely professional as all you become is a glorified parts fitter. No need for anyone qualified at all, may as well just send bits to the punters and let them do that, you’re out a job.
That’s not what I meant. If you have only 2 components in a machine that handle the connectivity and both are potentially sealed units in the sense that if they become faulty, you would replace them rather than repair anything, then factor in that once swapped there is very basic configuration likely to be done to connect it, what is the point of a network engineer?
You are also looking at these types of repairs and treating them as if they are 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the job though. Someone who can guess the element is faulty and swap it out isn’t automatically an engineer, it’s a tiny part of the job. Playing part bingo is unfortunately sometimes part of the job even when you have the full backup of a manufacturer as some faults can’t be specifically tied to a single component or only show intermittently and can’t be tested as faulty when you are on-site.
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