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Re: IOT enabled Engineers
My first experience of computers was when I purchased 2 Comodore 64 computers for my kids for Christmas.
I had to sit up all night to find out how to use them on Christmas Eve as you had to use computer code and it took days to write programs for them.
Now you have programs to write the codes for you this includes programs for hacking.
It just takes one person to press the key to set the malicious program in motion and you can infect millions of appliances.
How many engineers are out there to replace motherboards if the manufactures are not able to update the systems like you do with your computer or how many can you install internet security to ?
At the moment all the fridge freezers I have come across has no means of installing virus software and as it is on your IP address then this could effect other connected appliances.
I have not seen the latest Samsung’s but the older Various manufactures trial appliances did not last long due to software problems.
You could end up with a large delivery of food you never ordered or your fridge could just be programmed to turn off with the loss of the contents.
Even the Tesla electric cars have had problems with hackers and this is a one hundred thousand pound item so what chance have you got with a four thousand pound appliance.
I like gadgets but I cannot see the point of internet connected appliances until you have robots with AI to load or unload them and hope we do not end up with a terminator in the home.
Bob
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
If a client want’s me to up my skills that’s fine. So long as they up the renumeration accordingly and, I don’t see that happening at all.
What I see for the time being in this industry is manufacturer’s taking the proverbial and eating you guys to do more for the same or less.
But think about what you’re saying with a hypothetical trap that almost anyone could fall into as what you’ve said is if you have a problem, you just swap out the bits.
You go to a call and it won’t connect you test but you swap the module anyway just in case, job done.
Still won’t connect, you get a recall, do your local hotspot thing and it connects, won’t connect to the router.
You blame local conditions and walk away.
Logically you’ve already said the module was faulty in a legal sense otherwise, why change it? So the product has a fault, you said that. Then you changed your mind and said it was something else.
If I were a solicitor I’d be saying categorically that you hadn’t a clue what you were doing and really, you’ve no idea what was wrong. Again, logically then, you are not qualified to comment on much of anything.
That is exactly what most repairers will do when they come across these machines as they’ve no idea what to do with them, i.e. swap out bits till they luck out. It’s sad but true.
Either that or just not touch them.
In the end any way you slice it, these devices are probably not good news for repairers.
Probably not great news for makers either if they get hacked and told to do something they shouldn’t but, that ain’t my problem.
Just as a note though, network diagnostics is not a case of just swapping stuff out, there’s a raft of hardware and software tools to help diagnose and pinpoint issues. If you get one that does that I suspect they’re not very good.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:If a client want’s me to up my skills that’s fine. So long as they up the renumeration accordingly and, I don’t see that happening at all.
What I see for the time being in this industry is manufacturer’s taking the proverbial and eating you guys to do more for the same or less.
The training benefits my company and allows me to take on out of warranty work though.
kwatt wrote:But think about what you’re saying with a hypothetical trap that almost anyone could fall into as what you’ve said is if you have a problem, you just swap out the bits.
You go to a call and it won’t connect you test but you swap the module anyway just in case, job done.
Still won’t connect, you get a recall, do your local hotspot thing and it connects, won’t connect to the router.
You blame local conditions and walk away.
Logically you’ve already said the module was faulty in a legal sense otherwise, why change it? So the product has a fault, you said that. Then you changed your mind and said it was something else.
If I were a solicitor I’d be saying categorically that you hadn’t a clue what you were doing and really, you’ve no idea what was wrong. Again, logically then, you are not qualified to comment on much of anything.
If I go to a call and it connects on my tests, I have no reason to just swap out the module anyway. If I did swap out a part in the hope that it was intermittently dropping the connection, I would be clear to tell the customer it was being swapped as a precaution rather than because it was definitely faulty.
Also, IANAL but your solicitor wouldn’t have a leg to stand on with that argument, because without the part in their posession to prove it wasn’t faulty and assuming swapping the part fixed the issue, any further fault is a different issue. Just because there is a faulty module, that doesn’t mean there isn’t also a local issue causing problems at the same time.
kwatt wrote:
That is exactly what most repairers will do when they come across these machines as they’ve no idea what to do with them, i.e. swap out bits till they luck out. It’s sad but true.Either that or just not touch them.
In the end any way you slice it, these devices are probably not good news for repairers.
It’s not the whole machine though, it’s a single function of that machine. There are certain repairs/appliances I turn away just now and if for some reason it gets to the point of turning some of these away, I don’t forecast it’s going to be even close to catastrophic for my business as I expect it to be a tiny ratio when compared to repairs not related to connectivity issues.
kwatt wrote:
Just as a note though, network diagnostics is not a case of just swapping stuff out, there’s a raft of hardware and software tools to help diagnose and pinpoint issues. If you get one that does that I suspect they’re not very good.I think you need to get out of this mindset that somehow the repairer is responsible for diagnosing and fixing ANY issues that are causing a problem with the appliance, even if they are on the customer’s network. Once you confirm it’s a local issue, your job is done unless you want to offer further help which someone who doesn’t know anything about networks wouldn’t do. If you confirm a fault, you swap out the faulty part. Network diagnostics are pretty much useless because if the machine is not transmitting it could be any part of the appliance connectivity side that is faulty and none of your tests on the network are going to find anything as there is no signal to pickup in the first place. In reality, the network knowledge required for repairing these kinds of appliances is actually pretty small.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
SAMURI wrote:
You could end up with a large delivery of food you never ordered or your fridge could just be programmed to turn off with the loss of the contents.FYI, most connected fridges will not let you switch them off to prevent someone maliciously or accidentally doing it.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
I don’t think you’re getting this. No offence intended at all, it’s a good conversation and worthwhile having.
Okay so I’m trying to show how complex this actually is or can be.
A solicitor won’t give a stuff about the truth, only what they want to prove. Ditto the customer with a claim and, if you get steam rolled and thrown under the bus to make that happen then, so be it in their eyes.
Your opinion is what they will try to devalue and/or discredit. Over a £4.5K or more fridge it may just come to it, far more likely than a £200 washer.
They don’t need hard evidence to do that. Trust me, I know this all too well, on both sides.
You say it’s one function of the machine but is it really? That module or control system has open comms with every function of the machine. As Bob pointed out, hacked it can be instructed to do something it’s not supposed to so, you can be sent on a wild goose chase looking for faults that don’t even exist.
Customer just has a duff machine and perhaps a claim for God knows what all even supposing it doesn’t cause major harm to contents, property or life.
Ramp that up to a massive breach, like Sony had not so long ago, and you’re looking at a monumental problem. If they flog any of these things of course.
Which gets me to, the cost of adding connectivity to a dumb device, about $5-10 roughly. If that’s the case then why are the £100’s of more? Only reason I can see is that it’s to pump up margins. Is that in the interest of consumers for features that, as we’ve already said, are very limited unless you have robots to load/unload the products, auto-dosing and refill etc, etc, etc.
Customers though won’t give a stuff who’s at fault, all they want is it fixed. The X/Y/Z appliance doesn’t work, fix it. It’s your problem, the manufacturer’s problem, the retailer’s problem… anyone’s problem bar theirs.
Yes we all know it’s back to your flooring things etc and we’ve all seen the same arguments had over that sorta stuff too but that’s not the point, it’s the hassle it creates and grief you get over it and, you’ve got to be able to demonstrate that it’s not the machine. Back to, can you do that? Can you *PROVE* that it isn’t the appliance and, how will you do that?
Simple, swap the boards, say a little prayer, hope it all comes right and you’re back to.. well, you don’t really know if that doesn’t fix it.
Under warranty it’s likely to largely be the manufacturer’s risk.
Insurance, an insurance company’s risk but it won’t take much before they load the plans/policies or refuse to cover.
OOW, it’s all on you. You carry all the risk.
And that last point, yes it is on you to correctly diagnose and repair the problem IMO. If you don’t, you’re not doing the job you’re paid to do so, instant breach of contract and the customer can quite rightfully and legally refuse to pay you.
Even if you swapped out a £300 board.
Have fun with that.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
You ask how I would prove it wasn’t the machine? I’ve already said you can connect to a hotspot and if that works, it can only be a local issue outwith the machine.
Why would I swap a £300 board if the appliance was not faulty? This is the fatal flaw in your whole argument here. You say it’s unprofessional and we shouldn’t play part bingo, but then keep coming back to what-ifs when playing part bingo. If I guess at a £300 part and it doesn’t work, that’s on me anyway so would be no reason to go to court. I don’t charge for the parts I diagnosed if they don’t fix the appliance because I’ve not done my job properly, unless I clearly explained there may be further parts required and they wanted to proceed anyway.
I also don’t see where loss of contents, life or property damage come into any of this. Are we assuming a washing machine can be hacked to start spinning without the door closed? Or an oven to heat but with no cooling fan activated? I’d highly doubt it was possible to hack the individual components to operate without the usual safeguards in place and even if it was, it’s on the manufacturer, not me as a repairer. All these apps normally do is trigger an existing routine stored on the board, so worst case is they run an actual program on the appliance. Fridges can’t normally be switched off as there is no reason to do so from an app.
Overall, while you may have these concerns about connected devices, your whole post is really nothing to do specifically with connected appliances. Everything you have said covers any appliance that is being worked on so I don’t see why these appliances are different.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
If it connects to a local hotspot it can be another issue, easily.
LG did it and got caught doing it in the USA, they had machines set to fool the Energy Star tests some years ago in the firmware to present false energy readings. That went very sideways for them.
It’s easy to foil a test like that in a malicious code.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoofing_attack
What you think you see, what is…
If manufacturers can spoof stuff that easily do you not think that maybe a hacker might be able to do so also?
But if you root it, you can do anything you like with it. Even stuff you may think not to be possible, is.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
look at your local computer repair outfits adverts “no fix no fee” so if this stuff is connected that surely must apply to us…………….. or so the bottom end customers will think. cant see getting paid after telling a customer its exterior to the appliance.
wilf
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:If it connects to a local hotspot it can be another issue, easily.
LG did it and got caught doing it in the USA, they had machines set to fool the Energy Star tests some years ago in the firmware to present false energy readings. That went very sideways for them.
It’s easy to foil a test like that in a malicious code.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoofing_attack
What you think you see, what is…
If manufacturers can spoof stuff that easily do you not think that maybe a hacker might be able to do so also?
But if you root it, you can do anything you like with it. Even stuff you may think not to be possible, is.
K.
We were talking about connectivity issues being ruled out from being a problem with the appliance and how I would prove it. If I connect to a local hotspot, it does rule the problem to be local if their router does not allow the connection.
I understand there will be some challenges, I understand there will be customers not happy at what they are being told. Such is life and no different from my day to day work just now.
wilf wrote:look at your local computer repair outfits adverts “no fix no fee” so if this stuff is connected that surely must apply to us…………….. or so the bottom end customers will think. cant see getting paid after telling a customer its exterior to the appliance.
wilf
Not sure where you are going with this. Many companies offer no fix, no fee for appliances, I don’t and I’ve never once had a customer refuse to pay based on Joe down the road not charging. Carrying a computer into a workshop and it not being fixed is a lot different from actually having to travel to the customer and spend time on their premises. You are comparing apples and oranges.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
LothianDomestics wrote:We were talking about connectivity issues being ruled out from being a problem with the appliance and how I would prove it. If I connect to a local hotspot, it does rule the problem to be local if their router does not allow the connection.
Easy, malicious code running an exploit. The use of Google will provide many, many examples of such things.
Given the laughable security on most of these things that is by no means even remotely far fetched just as you would perhaps have seen where Windows machines are exploited to disallow a web connection to elicit payment but you can still access LAN/WLAN devices, known as ransomware commonly.
Then as you say, the cure from your perspective is to just swap the board/s. That will clear it or it should do at any rate.
What do you do when you get a recall if/when it happens again?
Probably though a bigger issue is around getting the feature set to work for the customer on their device/s which could be a bit of a challenge depending on how it’s implemented. Then you get into the vagaries of what device they’re using, what browser or app and so forth and I guess a part of what I go on about with these products is that the appliance industry is just not geared to support that as they do interact with other tech. I strongly expect most wouldn’t have much idea of what devices and/or software plays nice with others.
If your contractually obliged to look at this stuff then all you can do is, as you appear to be saying, run in, kick the tyres, bail out if it works. If it doesn’t swap the boards and run.
If that solves the problem, great.
If not, tough, it’s the customer’s problem.
To my mind that’s not exactly a great service and if I called in an “expert” I expect them to be able to do their job and resolve the issue or to be able to tell me what is the problem and how to best remedy it. If that means another expert in a different field fair enough but, if you give that advice you really need to be sure that you are giving the right advice.
I believe one of the issues here is the perception of the customer as they’ll just see this as your problem as it’s the device that’s the problem since it’s not doing whatever it should. With your flooring example which is good enough, it’s easy enough to explain to the customer and demonstrate what the problem is even although they may take some convincing. With this stuff it’s a lot harder to explain and if you’ve not the knowledge to do so then that could get harder still especially as you probably wouldn’t be able to demonstrate where the problem lies. Sure, you could say, “look at that it works there” but that doesn’t resolve the issue in the eyes of the customer.
Throw into this that the people that will be buying these boxes for the time being are highly probable to be tech savvy and know more about it than you do and, probably more than you ever will. Holding a debate on where the problem is won’t be a whole heap of fun.
If you’re happy fixing them though knock yourself out but for me, I wouldn’t want to be or most certainly not at standard rates and I sure as shoot wouldn’t want to be selling them, too much exposure IMO.
If I were fixing them I’d also make it clear that in relation to connected product with issues around this stuff, do not send me a job with the word “recall” on it as it will be rejected and sent right back.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
LothianDomestics wrote:
We were talking about connectivity issues being ruled out from being a problem with the appliance and how I would prove it. If I connect to a local hotspot, it does rule the problem to be local if their router does not allow the connection.Easy, malicious code running an exploit. The use of Google will provide many, many examples of such things.
An exploit isn’t going to cause it to connect to my hotspot but not the customer’s router though.
Overall I think we are going deeper into this than we need to. Sure they could potentially be hacked and they will be, but the majority are going to be in a botnet doing things like spamming and DDOSing, I can’t see many people hacking a washing machine to randomly start a wash cycle though or to make people think they have ghosts. In reality it make no sense for them to mess with the controls as that brings awareness that something is wrong, it’s in their benefit to silently do their thing in the background so the customer doesn’t have a clue.
Sure you could visit, repair it and they get hacked again. That does not mean it’s all on you, just as a computer tech is not responsible for a customer getting a laptop hacked after they clean it either.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
LothianDomestics wrote:An exploit isn’t going to cause it to connect to my hotspot but not the customer’s router though.
You just underlined a point I was making.
That is exactly what happens with such an exploit although you may not see it that way, it’ll connect to a local LAN/WLAN and possibly may or, possibly may not see other web servers locally but won’t when it goes to the WAN.
You create a local hotspot, in effect a small local WLAN and see it but you’re not testing outside that bubble.
You may then jump the net though and then see a problem. Depends what it is and the purpose of it.
But it isn’t a case of they can be hacked, stuff out there HAS been hacked already and now Mr Samsung et all want people to put their payment details in there for shopping online… really?
Just for fun some little snotty teenager in Croatia might decide to poke fun one day and run a code that makes them all stop cooling, just for a laugh. Or switch and lock it to defrost.
Just make them unresponsive.
Or just steal all the details on it and sell that off or even do that, then cover it by shutting them all down.
There are people out there that will do that sort of thing just for kicks or to prove that they can. Such things have been seen many, many times on many platforms.
Connect these tings to the like of an Amazon account and grab those account details and it’s a license to print money to criminals.
I was told that a Samsung one at a training thing was hacked in less than five minutes using free to download open source tools. Great security eh?
And no the computer tech may well not be responsible but, if proper security measures are advised and implemented it shouldn’t happen again. If the customer doesn’t follow those instructions well that’s on them. If the tech didn’t advise on security then I’d be surprised but, on them.
What can a lowly, unqualified and largely ignorant of the technologies involved person advise what the customer should do to secure their connected appliances?
And that’s the big difference here that I have tried to highlight, appliance technicians have not got the skill set to advise correctly. But, they’re operating with their legs chopped off as the things are so insecure anyway. You can’t even tell the customer to install anti-virus or swap ports about etc as you can’t on most I’ve seen.
You might guess that I don’t swallow the corporate BS on this stuff as it is just that IMO, BS as they seem to think it’s all unicorns and rainbows when, it ain’t.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
LothianDomestics wrote:
But it isn’t a case of they can be hacked, stuff out there HAS been hacked already
Like I said previously though, worse case you refuse to take on jobs like this and no doubt it’s going to be a very small percentage of overall repair. I see the potential for problems, I just don’t see it as being a showstopper for my business.
Let’s just hope the ones released in the future are more secure, I honestly believe that will be the case but I think it will take time.
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