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Re: ISE AW23
I havent looked into the difference between the ISE AW23 and the Amica AWCN14 in too much detail, but at a glance the programes are very similar the control panel layout is obviously different.
How can they say they have not made this for the uk market when as Tim has pointed out they have this one which is very similar or as far as i can see slightly better spec. One selling Feature has a 19 minute wash. ❗
When John first mentioned this appliance I was really impressed with the build quality and under the impression they were only selling the 1200 models in the uk, until i seen the portway info now a bit confused. 😕
Have we been taken for a ride by Amica in producing this machine which is around £100 more expensive than their own on the trade price and has the basic 2 year warranty, 7 year housing perforation and 10 year drum perforation how can they justify this amount. Will we be getting this extra warranty in addition on the AW23.
Surely if we are buying this without the guarantee and underwritting it with AxA then it should be cheaper or the same as the Amica trade price.
Sorry, is it me or am I missing something here, it wont take a customer to long to compare these and see that there is not much diffrence 😳
Ken can you or John shed some light on this, I did not want to highlight this but feel we need to know apart from the work what we are getting for this extra cost, selling a machine at £399 with 2 year I feel will be a stuggle If it had 5 year G at this price then maybe it would seem more attractive, compared with the Amica. Maybe iam being pessimistic ?
Steven
AW23
A+AB rated with a 6kg load capacity
• 1400rpm spin speed
• Simple operation with intuitive controls
• Full 40°C cottons wash in as little as 1 hour 15 minutes
• LCD backlit display
• 26 minute super short wash
• Time remaining till program complete display
• Wash progress display
• 3D washing, washes front to back as well as from side to side
• Easy iron option
• Variable rinse settings
• Variable spin settings
• Variable wash settings
• Rinse and hold option
• Auto half load, the machine senses the water level required automatically
• Three point suspension for superior vibration reduction and stability
• Anti-block drain pump and removable panel allow you to clear the pump without the need for an engineer
• 180Ëš door opening for easy access
• Easily removable soap drawer for cleaning
• Emergency drainage system
• Delay timerAWCN14
Everyday wash
Intensive washing
SuperShort Wash 19 mins
Cotton system
Woll wash
Special synthetic washing programme
Delicate washing programme
Sleep Easy
Child Lock
Eco function
Easy ironing
Extra rinsing
Smooth control of spin speed
Pause
AutoSensor
Delayed start function
Three levels of washing
Three levels of rinsing
Stop with water
Antibacterial system
3D Super Wash System: 5 Tilted drum for best wash results
Rain washing
Foam protection
Anti leakage protection
Wide 33 cm loading aperture
180Ëš opening door
Door hinging on left
Automatic balance system
Auto Drain – rinse water is drained without spinning, perfect for delicatesRe: ISE AW23
So far as I am aware the only Amica’s in the UK are 1000 and 1200rpm models.
There may be others listed but, they ain’t there so far as I know.
Asides from which, remember that even if there is some stock of this machine that I’ve not seen since I don’t have access to Portway or what they do, that they would likely have been bought when the Pound was higher against the Euro. That could explain up to a 30{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} price difference.
And no, insuring with AXA or any other insurer is more expensive. Amica are underwriting their own warranties in the UK and service is only through GDHA. Spares for these models are, likewise, only available from GDHA.
If you guys can’t compete on service levels (run rings round them in fact) with GDHA there’s something way, way wrong with the world. If we can’t beat them to death on spares pricing and availability there’s something wrong with the world.
£399 with a five year warranty just isn’t doable without sacrificing a lot.
However, all that said…
The ISE2 was always intended to be pitched at the equivalent Bosch, not an equivalent Amica machine.
What Amica and Portway choose to do is their own concern and, at what portion of the market they wish to operate in is, again, their own concern.
We’re not running that race and we’re not trying to compete with Portway or Amica just as we were not doing so with the Luxor and the old ISE2 which, from what I’m told, has now shot up in price as they’ve cleared the stocks and had to get more.
But really, I can’t say I care. Portway’s or Amica’s problems aren’t my concern as the AW23 doesn’t have either of those names on it, the factory might make the machine for us and they may even use a few bits that are the same, but that’s where it ends.
As for features, if you really want I’ll expand the list and include the vast bulk of what’s listed against the Portway machine if you like. I just considered a lot of it to be b0ll0cks and picked out the most relevant ones to customers as, after all, the idea is to sell them. 😉
K.
[EDIT]
I forgot to mention…
People said we wouldn’t do anything with the “Beko”, we sold a few thousand of those.
People said we were mad to do the ISE2 when the Luxor was so cheap by comparison, we did a couple thousand of those. Made no money on them really, but you guys seemed to love them.
We were told the ISE5 was too expensive… pick a version.
We were told the ISE10 was WAY too expensive. People laughed at me when I said we’d take Miele on head on, I sat and had a sales dude literally laugh at me for saying so when setting up ISE10.
We’ve sold a fair few now and beaten Miele on every occasion that we’ve gone head-to-head with them.
Is this ISE that has made this possible? Partially, yes. We throw the ball, you guys bat it out the park.
Whether you choose to take a swing at it or not is your call.
Re: ISE AW23
My customers will buy it because I say it’s a decent machine and I’ll look after it for them. No brainer really. I’ll lose a few cheap skates (no loss, really) and a few who insist on silver, but I don’t see a problem selling them. I’ll probably sell on the 5 year warranty, with the 2 years as a fall back.
To date, I have never ever seen an Amica product in Leeds, so I can’t see much of a conflict occuring.
Shame we haven’t got the true budget option for my property customers anymore, but we can see how things are panning out in 6-9 months time.
Chris.
Re: ISE AW23
Penguin45 wrote:Shame we haven’t got the true budget option for my property customers anymore, but we can see how things are panning out in 6-9 months time.
We’re working on it Chris, honest, we really are!
We make b00ger all on those machines but we know how important that they are to all the guys, it is not lost on John, Sean or myself in any way just how important that is to you all. We do get it.
The problem has been the value of the Pound and that the market hasn’t really settled completely as yet. I mean, what price is a value machine these days? Does anyone know?
We know what some retailers and distributors are selling stock that they have through at but, beyond that, it’s a mystery as yet.
Which leaves us with this huge quandary…
IF we were to re-instate the 1242 then the price would have jumped by 20+{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} so that get poo-poo’d as being too expensive for what it is.
We could, probably, source “something else” but that means yet another new model, another raft of tech and spares as well as manuals etc. and in any event would be costing more than the 1242.
Or, we do what we thought was the wisest thing to do, wait and see what happens in the marketplace and give it time to settle back down.
In the meantime we strike the best balance we can between the 2 that was and the 5 that was.
That doesn’t say we’re done. It says we’re held in check for now, much as we are on a few things, mainly due to not having limitless funds available to throw at the problem.
Remember what I’ve said in many a post about being self-funding? Well, we apply that to ISE, if we can’t afford to finance it ourselves, we don’t do it and we just don’t have the cash to throw around and remain safe, secure and in the black while introducing a load of new products. I, John and the rest of the team will not allow ISE to be jeopardised by stupidity and trying to reach beyond our means, we prefer the financial stability that we have thanks. It’s a very conservative view I know, but nonetheless the safest option.
It may not be the most popular option but well, that’s what I would think most of you would want. We don’t gamble with your money or reputations.
Maybe we’re mad and should but I don’t think so. 😕
K.
Re: ISE AW23
I knew you would put me in my place Ken 😳
Its just a shame the market is the way its gone. We have not the choice at the moment of the cheaper machine. The 1242 was always a good fall back option under £300 to clinch the deal, if you could not sell the 10 or late 5 (which was a cracking machine and will be missed) but at least you keep it in the family so to speak.
Its not been a problem to sell any of the ISE appliances, I know i have sold my fair share.
I dont think that the ISE 10 is expensive at all, IMO it is really excellant value for money, its just trying to get my customer to part with their money all in one go, but hey I sold a few, maybe now its time to push the 10 harder.
Like you Chris, I will probably sell the Am23 as a 5 and use the 2 as the fall back.
How do you organise the 5 year will it be the same I send in the warranty card you invoice us for the extra seperatly or do we ask at time of ordering?
As a matter of interest for the new machine have you a cost price for the few parts and how do these compare with the original 2/5?
Do you have back up in case we need them from the start?
StevenRe: ISE AW23
It really wasn’t about putting anyone in their place at all Steven, it was more about, this is where we are and what it’s about.
What I was trying to point out is that you can’t compare apples with oranges as it’s a different machine, different spec, different warranty arrangements and a different price.
The problem with the cheap end of the market is that it hasn’t settled yet with all the changes in credit terms and currencies. We therefore thought it wise to wait and see what happened rather than just jumping in.
I agree, the 1242 was a good little machine but, from our perspective, it made no money and caused as much admin aggro as anything else. It was originally done as a favour for one person who was to be taking 60 a month which didn’t quite go to plan and then added as a little extra for everyone else. It wasn’t a mainstay of the business by any means.
The problem was that as the volumes grew on them so did the amount of investment required to fund that volume and, when credit was reduced to more or less zero it just wasn’t viable to continue with it.
Even if we re-introduced a budget machine I would expect that it wouldn’t be possible to offer any credit terms on them as, to be perfectly frank, there’s no profit in them. You’ll be lucky if we made £10 a box, very lucky and, that’s not enough to allow credit terms as it barely covers the cost to admin them let alone anything else.
What everyone else is doing is chasing volume, a stack ’em high, sell ’em cheap mentality which is fine, if you want to compete with Currys and Comet. We don’t, why would we want to? For that matter, why would you want to? All we do is try to offer the customer a better, more informed and better value package and a big part of that package is you guys, the repairers that look after the machine and retain the customer.
I know that’s probably not what you all want to hear but it’s the stark truth of it and I’d rather be honest and upfront on why things are the way that they are.
On a slightly lighter note…
All the AW23’s will be invoiced at the 2 year warranty rate. When the registration is returned the extra will be invoiced to you.
It’s about the only way to do it.
If the registration is not returned, as with all the other machines, there will be no warranty whatsoever. It is absolutely imperative that the registrations are returned or the machine will not be registered with AXA.
The reason I’m stressing the point is that David was telling me yesterday that there have been some that have not been registered and there are some disappointed customers out there now.
Same thing if you don’t tell us it’s a 5 year warranty, it’ll be insured as a 2 and we cannot change it after registration now. AXA have cracked down on it. 🙁
And now the good news…
Spares arrive with the first container, we’ve learned that lesson. 😉
K.
Re: ISE AW23
Putting my other thoughts to one side for now.
K wrote:
The reason I’m stressing the point is that David was telling me yesterday that there have been some that have not been registered and there are some disappointed customers out there now.
I always thought the registration side of things was a bit vague.
Let me explain;
We e-mail the registration form to ise admin. Thats it.
We do not know if the registration has been processed.
A return e-mail confirming registration would be good and even better a copy of the warranty that is sent to the customer.
Is that possible?
Tim.
Re: ISE AW23
I’ll look into the other bit of it Tim but, essentially, the customer is sent a certificate for the warranty every time.
K.
Guys,
I have been on the road since the start of February with our proto-type machine (17,000 miles done – three days to go) so have not been monitoring the posts closely, but Ken tipped me off about this debate which I don’t want to get out of hand so.
For the record;
1. Portway
I too was surpised Portway were offering a 1400 spin Amica machine given their ‘stack them high sell them cheap’ business model.
I called the UK agent for Amica this afternoon who informed me that our 6kg machine model number AWCE 14DA is exclusive to us – so is not the same as Portway’s – who out of the blue have bought 80 of a different design lower specification 1400 machine which by ‘conicidence’ they took in to stock last week, just before we got our stock arrives and are selling at £192 which according to Simon is at little if any margin – spoiler??.
My view is let them get on with it, the service work is done by Glen Dimplex who have no parts and are causing more problems than they solve.
2. Cheap Machines
Had we continued with the Vestel machines due to the 4{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} factory increase plus the Euro effect, the trade price of the ISE 2 would have been £216 with us making £10 per machine.
The ISE 5 with a carbon brush motor replacing the current induction would have been £368. This is bad value for money so they had to go.
I shopped arround and the best machine for the money was the Amica which is on a par with the current 5-2 in our opinion is better build quality and is easier to work on and at £321 with five year cover is only £8 more than the Vestel machine was and with the price is held for the whole of 2009. I felt this was a good deal as it allows you a direct relpacement for the current five effectively for the same money as before.
Unfortunately the financial climate with suppliers has changed for everyone. When we started the factories asked how much could you sell, they now ask how are you going to pay for the stock. By switching supply there is no way any factory will give us credit on new product. To pay cash up front on two machines would require an extra £200,000. By selling through the existing stock we can liquidate half of this thus allowing us to go with the new machine.
Unlike MFi and Sovereign we will not borrow money to fund stock and even if we did; tying up that amount of money to make £10 per machine if the fuel price & exchange rates stay stable, you buy in threes and you all pay me within terms is too financially burdensome on a business of our size.
This does not mean we can not get cheap machines. As I said to you all when we met face to face if enough of you are are willing to order and pay for machines up front I will source them for you, bring them in insure them, distribute them and only take a £5 to cover admin. But this does not answer the question how cheap is cheap?
Doing this I recon I could get close to Portway’s trade prices on Amica but this is still nowhere near Beko’s and Indesit’s in the £120s and Gronje in the £140s, never mind special offers as people dump stock to liquidate cash.
After Friday I am having a couple of weeks off after which if you want me to source a cheap machine I will; but as for ISE we have come to the conclusion we can not compete at the bottom end. This is why the new machine has been badged ISE 2 and is available at £271 with a two year warranty which is on par with similar spec Bosch machines and will retail at £399 is as low as we will go if we have to fund the stock.
3. Insurrance
I could save money on insurrance in one of three ways;
1. Don’t lay off the guarantees, keep the cash pay the service calls ourselves instead of shelling out £10,000 a month to Axa via an FSA registered broker.
2. Reduce your labour rates from £50 / £60 per job to £20 / £30.
3. Sub-contract the service work on mass to someone like JTM or Glendiplex.All the above go against our founding principles; you look after your own customers, if we cease trading the guarantees stand and you are paid a fair rate for the work you do. If this means we pay more than the competition so be it.
Sorry for the essay, sorry if it comes over defensive but we have worked hard to keep the ship steady in stormy seas. You know where I am if you want a chat (phone me) I will hopely see you on Friday Tim (I spoke to Roy last week so assume you’ve got me penciled in).
The new machines are in tomorrow letters and DVDs with user manuals, parts lists and a video of Jim taking the machine appart is on it’s way.
I hope this clarifies where we are at.
Regards
John
Re: ISE AW23
I’ll look into the other bit of it Tim but, essentially, the customer is sent a certificate for the warranty every time.
I know certificates are sent to the customer but you know what customers are like. 😉
It would be much easier to send us a duplicate so we know that registration has been successful.
John, I know you phoned the office but I thought it was left for me to contact you to make arrangements. I haven’t got anything pencilled in for friday. 😳
I can do a dawn or dusk meeting at the mo. Let me know.
Thanks for the post.Tim.
Re: ISE AW23
timdowning wrote:It would be much easier to send us a duplicate so we know that registration has been successful.
Na, they’re 3mb a pop! 😉
And customers…. don’t get me started on them! :rolls:
It’s easy enough to send email confirmation I’m informed but to do it postal and all the extra time printing as well as postage costs is a royal pain from an admin standpoint.
We’re going to look at it more, but an email confirmation of receipt shouldn’t be an issue.
K.
Hi John
This holiday is well over due, its about time you had a break. (That van needs a rest too)I would just like to say thank you for all your hard work over the last year.:tup:
I think I can speak for all of us, that we appreciate all you have done for us in organising these appliances, we would not have made this extra money without your help.
Thank you and keep up the good work, see and speak to you when you have had a break.
Ps Dont forget to switch your phone off you dont want me bothering you!! 😆
Steven
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