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Re: News
Alanj wrote:Hi Ken, just as a matter of interest are the parts for ISE10 machines only suitable for them or are there Asko machines/spares compatible?
Asko spares will be compatible but cross referencing them can be a pain at times where that is possible.
Alanj wrote:Is it just that there will be no spares available warranty/chargeable full stop?
Unknown at this point.
There is stock of some parts but there are some crucial ones that are OOS with no ETA at present. However it is unclear if these can or cannot be released so, for now, they are pretty much frozen until there is more clarity going forward.
K.
Re: News
With all respect I would stick my neck out here and say not all your agents including us are engaged in reading every forum, my take on this that as agents/partners of ISE any material change such as we are discussing should have been communicated to anyone doing business with ISE as the whole thing pivoted on Local Service, Long Insurance Backed Warranty and once that situation underwent the degree of change at a basic level ISE should have made us aware of it.
Regarding the situation of being swatted in Consumer law I take your point, what I was asking for with your extensive knowledge on this very subject is the best way for us to handle and communicate with any customer who might now be knocking on our door as they will not be able to get ISE to support the 10 year warranty and then saying our contract was with you, you know what I am saying here Ken and if you are able to give us any advise it would at this stage be very welcome.
Re: News
Where can we get sight of the Terms & Conditions of the warranty where it clearly states what is covered and what is not to which you refer to Ken
Re: News
Back at you Squadman, with all due respect it was always virtually exclusively internet based with general communications largely through this forum and, not very often by any other means. It is the best method as, to be honest, you send stuff out and people don’t bother to read it either.
Most of all the advice that you need can be found in the section I highlighted earlier for Tim. You really need to read up on it then, if you run into a problem that cannot be solved by that knowledge it’s best to do it on a case by case basis.
Warranty terms as published below.
K.
ISE Guarantee Conditions
We ISE Limited undertake to that if within 12 months of the date of purchase (or 120 months as applicable to the products eligible for 10 year domestic cover, if the purchase is registered) your ISE appliance or any part thereof is proved to be defective by reason only of faulty workmanship or materials, we will at our discretion repair the same free of charge for labour, materials or carriage, on condition that:
- The appliance has been correctly installed in accordance with instructions provided in a domestic setting* and for domestic use and used only on the electricity and other services stated on the rating plate
The appliance has been used for normal domestic purposes only, and in accordance with the manufacturer’s operating and maintenance instructions
Your guarantee covers the costs associated with mechanical or electrical breakdowns which occur through normal use of the appliance in use only. ISE agrees to cover the cost of replacement functional parts and labour to ensure that the appliance is working to specification for the period of cover
The appliance has not been serviced, maintained, repaired, taken apart or tampered with by any person not authorised by ISE.
All service work under this guarantee must be undertaken by ISE Customer Service or its authorised agents
This guarantee is rendered invalid if the machine is tampered with, modified or a repair attempted by an unauthorised person
Any appliance or defective part replaced shall become the Company’s property
This guarantee is only valid for repairs carried out by the agent named on the guarantee certificate provided by ISE or a repair agent as nominated by ISE Limited
The appliance must be used for domestic purposes only for the guarantee to apply. Appliances on commercial or professional premises or used in a commercial or high volume manner are not covered by this warranty
The guarantee does not cover routine maintenance
The guarantee is not transferable and only relates to the original purchaser of the product
Second-hand or reconditioned appliances are not covered
An appliance covered by this guarantee must be reasonably accessible to facilitate inspection or repair by a service technician.
Any new parts fitted carry guarantee cover only for the original period of cover
The guarantee does not provide “new for old” replacement due to a faulty component or components
Proof of purchase may be required
This guarantee is in addition to your statutory and other legal rights
In addition ISE agrees to provide, free of charge, telephone and email support for the lifetime of the product in relation to the operation, installation and general use of any ISE appliance.Guarantee exclusions
- Damage resulting from transportation, improper use or neglect, the replacement of any light bulbs or removable parts of glass and plastic**
Costs incurred for calls to an appliance, which is improperly installed, or calls to appliances outside the United Kingdom
Products of manufacture which are not marketed by ISE
Intentional damage
Impact damage
Related failures caused by a lack of care and attention or failure to correctly use and/or maintain the product in accordance with instruction or to remedy a fault in a timely manner
External influences (e.g. Weather, flood, lightning, electrical shock or surge, storm, extreme temperature, explosion, impact, corrosion, theft or attempted theft and suchlike)
Mains fuses or to correct wiring, plumbing, drainage or any other supply
Repair an appliance due to the effects of limescale, mould, dirt, grease, spillages and odours
Unblock the pump of a washing machine, tumble dryer or dishwasher
Clearing of blockages caused by overloading, improper loading or inappropriate items from the drum
Clear lint from tumble dryers
Reverse door hinges
Installation costs or costs to remove an appliance where it is deemed to be inaccessible for service
Appliances on hire
Use of non-approved accessories or materials
Damage or failure caused by any external factor unrelated to the appliance
Blockage or damage caused by limescale or any other factor
Breakdowns caused by failure to follow the instructions and damage caused by misuse e.g. foreign objects or unsuitable objects are not covered by the guarantee and the cost of any service requirement arising from such instances are the responsibility of the owner
Education or instructional visits
Visits where no electrical or mechanical fault can be detected
This guarantee does not cover cosmetic damage. Any cosmetic blemishes not reported at the time of installation are deemed to be caused during use
ISE shall not be liable for loss of goods, loss of use, or any special, indirect, or pure economic loss, costs, damages, charges or expenses except for liability that ISE are not allowed to exclude by law.Note that service calls placed for issues not covered by warranty may result in charges being levied.
ISE reserves the right to reduce or remove the warranty where commercial use or abnormal use not in line with normal domestic circumstances is detected or in the event of any other breach of conditions.
* Please note that the warranty may not be honoured on products found to be on commercial premises or at an address where a business of any kind is operated from and where a breach of this condition is detected the warranty can be declared void
** This includes but is not exclusively, drum paddles, filters and so on.
Additional Information
Please do note that that the ISE warranty is not a service plan, it will only cover components that are faulty through failure alone and will not cover for wear and tear items such as belts, bearings and other components that fail due to general use.
Re: News
Back at you Squadman, with all due respect it was always virtually exclusively internet based with general communications largely through this forum and, not very often by any other means. It is the best method as, to be honest, you send stuff out and people don’t bother to read it either.
I understand what you are saying Ken but seriously if an agent received a letter or email outlining that as of 2010 the ISE products were no longer backed by insurance and that the 10 year warranty being advertised a key point why customers would buy the product and that it would not perform as expected I cannot imagine any of us not taking notice !
I have identified looking at my own records that we have 11 ISE customers most of which were inside the 2010 cut off period and registered warranties who have no recourse with ISE or their insurer, the others were sold after 2010 and therefore sold with us and the customers believing that as advertised at the time the product carried a 10 year warranty. This would have been much easier had we had been advised that this was no longer the case, from what you are saying and please I am not having a go as that would be unfair given the whole situation, that we are now exposed to instances where the customer cannot get hold of ISE or they choose to ring us only to be advised that the 10 year warranty is void. This will incite anger from the customers with which we have a relationship and it may well be that they wish to proceed exploring the avenues of redress from the insurers whoever they may be? where they cannot obtain reasonable response they will then come gunning for us as we sold them the product, my reading of this is that the customer has to show the goods were not fit for purpose, they have not lasted a reasonable period of time, the product has manufacturing defects, all aspects that in normal circumstances a manufacturer could assist a dealer in disproving. As it stands then we are on our own to argue these kind of points with the customers, some may give up I suspect many will not and will want to possibly try and litigate matters as is human nature for some. I think I now need to take some advise from a suitably trained person so we can deal with any such set of circumstances and a straight and equitable manner as the last thing any business needs are customers who mistrust them.No doubt you have tried your best to mitigate this whole situation and my sympathies are with you and the rest of the ISE team especially David who as been a constant source of help at all times for me.
Re: News
To demonstrate…
ise-trade-support/another-day-another-issue-t76082.html
We don’t send out letters, we never did. Not a once that I am aware of.
Now see, what’s running through your head is the absolute worst doomsday scenarios possibly imaginable that you may have seen on TV or whatever.
The reality is not that.
Go read up and try to understand.
Depreciation and rescission has to be applied so the actual value of any claim is in actuality very low. Almost certainly not worth the time, effort of cost or pursuing.
And, as more time goes by, i.e. the longer the machines are out there not busted, the lower the value becomes.
K.
Re: News
I feel totally deceived by it all. Absolutely gutted. You have to remember we gave some of our best, long standing customers to ISE, years of hard work that takes. And your answer is to, as normal of late, knock us for not knowing consumer law. It’s not about law it’s about customer relations, growing a business. I can’t leave these customers high and dry giving them the see you in court routine. Oh I forgot it was just a hobby for you well you could have told us that from the offset!
Re: News
Tim,
I was forced to take a hand in ISE when John left, up until then I had practically zero knowledge of the day-to-day running of ISE. Even at that I had very, very little to do with it other than some tech support and dealing with the odd problem.
It is not my day job and not my primary business, never was. Which is the point I was making.
The only reason you’re having a pop at me on here is that you can get me here, nothing more. If it had been any other company then you’d have nobody to have a go at and, you’d still be in exactly the same position.
Just like you and everyone else here I took a business decision based on the FACT that ISE did not make money and shut it down, just as you all bin contracts or don’t cover certain brands or areas etc. Same thing only here it’s cost me tens of thousands of pounds before a halt was drawn to it.
Had I not shut it down it would have gone anyway by the end of this month, maybe next as it had no money to pay anyone.
I am sorry but I don’t have a magic wand that can fix that.
You can blame me all you like but in the end, that will not alter the outcome nor would anything that I could have done.
K.
Re: News
Nothing to do with having a pop.
It’s not about the running of ISE but more the fact you are trying to say you weren’t involved.
Right from the start you used this site as a way to recruit us. It was your baby. You should have never have let it get this bad. Once you were having trouble with insurers you should have put an end to ISE. We carried on selling the products after such time, I even challenged the no insurance route out loud at a meeting, we were assured there would be a pot of money to pay for repairs. We trusted ISE and you. Without this site there would have been no ISE, Do you get it now?Re: News
I am frankly surprised that more ISE agents have not been vocal about this situation and Tim has some valid points Ken. Having considered this since learning about it two days ago I am still of the view that at the juncture where the Risk Set changed that we should have all been advised but it appears we were not. Personally If I had the best part of 140K tied up in something it would be far from a hobby especially if the cash could be at risk. Today for instance we have a ISE client calling for service who had already tried via phone and email to get service from ISE. The result was that evidently they were told that there is no service or spares currently as the company may be sold to someone else. To try and keep faith with our customer we have arranged to go out to them tomorrow to see what can be done but if spares are required what then?
I sense Tim’s frustration at being left high and dry, sure companies fail everyday along with people who lose out but this could have been handled in a smoother fashion as far as the Agents & ISE were concerned, this is not a black view of worst case scenario as the customer I am calling on tomorrow happens to be a solicitor !
Re: News
I am afraid that regardless of how this played out once our pals removed all credit along with the events leading up to that, there was no happy ending in sight.
You have your opinions but, that wasn’t running it.
The thing you can accuse me of is keeping it running too long after all that, I’d take that onboard to a degree as I should have shut it down almost two years ago and saved myself a packet. But, it would have been exactly the same as now pretty much, just two years ago.
As for your comments about me selling ISE Tim, sure I mentioned it but who here ever, at any point, dealt with me on sales? Anyone?
Anyone ever approached by me about selling ISE? Visited by me to sell ISE? Or even, anyone ever had a service call processed by me?
The answer is no because, I wasn’t involved in it.
ISE was a way that I hoped would be self-sufficient and allow the guys to do their own service work. That’s it, no more and that’s what I hoped would be taken up but not enough to make it viable without the mid-market stuff. The mid-market stuff produced some volume but gave rise to other issues.
To that end, at the very beginning, I invested into ISE thinking (at the time) it was a fair bet. I was wrong.
So whilst you may well feel aggrieved and the odd customer might be a bit hacked off, which I completely get and appreciate, please appreciate that I have lost out way more than anyone.
Who do I complain to? How can I get my money back?
You want continuation of service, who’s funding it?
You should have never have let it get this bad.
That’s not blaming me then or having a pop?
SM, the real world situation is this;
The ISE machines were sold with a manufacturer warranty on them that was given “free” as in, it was not at an additional cost for the ten year ones at least.
As such it dies with the death of the manufacturer as it was a warranty (as all mostly are) offered as an addition to statutory rights, not a replacement for them.
The rights of the buyer then revert to the statutory rights in law, effectively the SoGA and, after six months unless the customer can prove an inherent defect from new then there is no claim against the retailer really. There’s a few arguments you can have in that with the “last a reasonable time” bit and so on but, to be honest in practise it’d be a nightmare to enforce and given the depreciated value, not worth the hassle.
If you want examples of similar just research SAAB cars, 25 year warrantied solar panels and other stuff, this sort of situation is not unheard of by any means.
K.
Re: News
Hey Ken, I get what you are saying there are three sides to this, over the last two days I have now got my head around what you were saying at the outset and your last paragraph reinforces that, the part I have issue with is that we were blindly selling ISE 10 in the belief that it was covered all ways and customers who were looking at the ISE website were also buying the product in the belief that they were buying a appliance with the 10 year warranty a premium product, personally I introduced many of my customers to ISE because the concept was great, service what you sell, customers bored of buying appliances that last a short while, sell them up to a ISE 10 was my view and keep the customer in your stable so to speak.
Yes we are hacked off, Yes there will be bother along the way, Yes we wish ISE was still, as it stands it is not and each of us have to deal with it best we can, it would however be very useful to know what spares are still to hand as at some point they surely must have a resale value to try and keep these appliances on the road as designed ?
Re: News
As before SM, I’m trying to secure spares supply but please keep in mind that this was kinda sprung on me as well. I perhaps had a bit more notice but not enough to get things sorted in time.
ISE’s primary problem was that it was too cheap, not enough margin to be able to generate the income required combined with not enough volume.
Secondary problem, service costs too high but that’s down to various factors that I don’t really want to get into as, to me, it’s just data and you will not like what the data says. Let’s leave it at, a combination of customer and engineer related issues.
Tertiary issue and the nail in the coffin was the removal of credit by Gorenje however, importantly, this was the catalyst that served to highlight the primary issues.
Combined, it was not sustainable.
K.
Re: News
If we could have a steer on ANY ongoing spares supply that would be most useful, as regards the data that you have had time to compile personally I am not sure what to make of your references if a) you are generalising that as agents we would not like it or if b) you are being much more specific. From my own standpoint we have always acted in a fair and honest manner with both the customers who purchased ISE and making sure the customer had a positive experience when our engineers called and represented your company Ken and have on more than one occasion gone beyond the pale of duty in ensuring that the data we were feeding you was accurate. If you have any bullets left for us out of that then lets hear it, here or PM I have nothing to hide.
Re: News
I’m not quite sure how many different ways that I can frame, “I don’t know”.
I would think it extremely unlikely that spares will be available this side of the holidays. Beyond that, I do not know and cannot even guess at it as it will hinge on any number of possible outcomes so, impossible to predict with any degree of accuracy.
Option A.
I will not have a pop at any individual or company unless I have call to do so or I think it justified and provable.
There may be something on this at the February meeting but, here’s stats pulled from various sources opinions, I think about fifteen brands/companies if memory serves, amalgamated into an easy to understand chart.
That was data compiled through 2013 and I was going to introduce it at the conference earlier this year but thought it too inflammatory to use. Asides which, when you’re in a room with manufacturers etc it’s perhaps not the best thing to tell them that the majority of the repairers are rubbish or, perceived as being so.
Perhaps you can appreciate that whilst there are a number of good agents out there, they are far from being the majority. This is a contributory factor in the demise of ISE and not an insignificant one.
K.
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