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Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
Bryan
Create will (hopefully) profit from being a Training Provider for the Level 2 NVQ. After all they can not do all the administration involved for free. They also employ assessor and verifiers both whom require wages and therefore the NVQ pathway has to sustain these costs.
Whether Create do it, or your local college, there has to be a profit margin for the Training Provider to exist.
Delivering the NVQ has to be treated like a business plan, because it is.
I for one fully support Create in joining this initiative and hope they profit from it.
Kevin
Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
Got my nvq 8 years ago.What a long drawn out thing it was.I started at a college in mansfield.The problem was the whole course failed ,due to lack of evidence on the field work.Even though i ran a shop and dealt with customers all the time,and was assessed on so many jobs at customers premises.Me and a friend met with a city and guilds examiner at another college,who was running the course.As he periodically met with the college ,they had kindly arrenged for us to meet him and for him to inspect our work.He had a look through, and it was arranged that we enrole at that college,to gain more customer assesments.That is the key area.You need to be assessed by someone with authority to ,Install ,repair diagnose,etc,not only that,you and the assessor need to complete and document each assesment exactly as city and guilds require.Worse still,different people from city and guilds will specify different requirements.Although we spent a long time at the next college building up loads more assesments,it was implied that he may have passed us, if he had been appointed to mansfield college.
What the leicester college has that other places havent, is that it is associated with a project to refurbish things that are donated by the public.This can be furniture,domestic appliances etc.
Once a week we would repair,deliver and install,these machines free to unemployed ,underprivaliged people around leicester.By the time city and guilds came back to the college we passed ,because they agreed to the assesor,they agreed with with the ammount and quality of the assesments.Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
Pulled out an old assesment sheet.You have got to prove to comply with different criteria.The paperwork is unbeleavable.There are dozens of units within these units their are loads of elements ,each needs to be done,proven to be done and everyone verified by the assessor.
Here is an example of UNIT 1: ELEMENT 1.1; ESTABLISH WORKING RELATIONSHIPS WITH CUSTOMER.PERFORMANCE CRITERIA; YES/NO COMMENTS / RANGE
OR N/A STATEMENTS COVERED
1. The domestic situation of the
customer is rcognised and respected.2.Informationis exchanged within the
limits of organisational confidentiality.3.Advice and help are offered to the
customer in ways which encourage
effective working relationships.4.Information provided to the customer
is at an effective level of technical detail
for their requirements.5. Differences of opinion are dealt with
in a manner which avoids offence.6. Potential difficulties affecting the
relationship with the customer are
identified and appropriate action taken
to resolve them. ASSESSOR SIGNATURE
CANDIDATES SIGNATUREThis is why we dad to do dozens of assesments.There is a minumum number anyway,but there are dozens of units,containing dozens of elements.Some jobs will not cover all of the elements so more assesments need to be done .The paperwork is huge.
Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
From what you post it’s going to be difficult for us to be that bad in administrating the pilot scheme.
Having met the guys from Create and having seen at 1st hand the job they do in Liverpool, I’d be confident we can be slicker than what you experienced.
But in a nutshell it’s why we want to run the pilot, to show the pathway and explain exactly what you are required to do and when.
The objective is to qualify the majority of engineers within a 3 month time frame, start to finish. This of course relies heavily on the co operation and effort put in by the candidate.
KevinRe: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
In my experience whilst delivering whitegoods training and assessing the C&G standards since 1994, the whole portfolio can be encompassed within about 10 jobs. The assessor should liase very closely with and guide the candidate, suggesting evidence requirements and using specific jobs to record the achievement, i.e ensure that the candidate is asked to complete relevant work that can be used towards evidence.
The time frame of 3 months is quite generous as most candidates will cover 35/40 completed jobs per week or 420/480 in 3 months. Quite sufficient for NVQ needs.
I have only briefly seen an EAL portfolio layout, as used by CREATE, but it seems to be in a more user friendly format and should be a little easier for the candidate to translate from NVQ speak into plain English.
There are several web based recording systems available to ease the paperwork burden, but these will probably only be explored when the numbers warrant.
I am looking forward to participating in the pilot scheme and I am sure that we will end up with a viable solution to enable ALL to participate.
George
Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
This issue is getting me rather worried.
I have been in the domestic appliance industry for nearly thirty years, prior to that I trained as an electrician. 15 years ago I started up as self employed. In that time I have built up a very successful business, with thousands of customers, most of who are loyal to me. I know from their comments to me that what I am doing is right for them.
As far as I am aware I comply with all Health and Safety issues both for the customer and myself. Which as an individual takes great effort to stay up to date.It is my belief that MY CAMP is sound. I do not believe that I need a paid overseer to inundate my business with extra paperwork. We all know how hard and difficult this industry is becoming. Being self employed means that I work in the region of 12-14 hours per day, sadly more and more time is being spent “doing paperwork” rather than out in the field. Consequently because of this my income is less now than it was five years ago. You cannot tell me that if we do have a Quango over us then would their employees accept a yearly drop in income.
Yes, I would not have any objection to being “vetted” occasionally, and would welcome any criticism or otherwise that may be directed.I think my comments here will ring sound with many others in this trade, and may well upset others, but at least I am willing to say them. I read comments of “well at my age I might just as well go and stack shelves in Tesco if this trade gets any more difficult “ We should be worried that these “old hands “ will be driven out of the business. We all hear that British Industry is “going down the pan fast.” We may have a scenario similar to that of the teachers, doctors and nurses who have retired early and are now greatly missed.
Mal
Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
Mal, where did the whole quango thing come from? If a quango is formed it won’t be by us but it would be forced by government. Not a lot we can do about it really as we are currently totally unregulated and have no governing body that represents enough of the trade to make the slightest difference to any imposed legislation.
Oh and the taxpayers would foot the bill.
With all the trepidation between disparate parties in this trade, well, I don’t think I have to tell you the chances do I of any one organising anything meaningful? That’s where we’re a bit different.
I have been waiting on some of the problems highlighted coming up and basically everyone falls into one of the following camps…
a. Those that believe that an NVQ has merit and should be adopted
b. Those that think it’s a load of pants and not required
c. Those that think it’s not needed yet, but may well be
d. Those that couldn’t give a fig
Does that seem reasonable?
Personally I actually don’t fall into any of those, but then I like to be a bit off-the-wall most days.
Me, I’d love to see a proper certificate as it would give anyone entering this industry a chance even if they left but I think the current NVQ is too limited in its scope to accomplish that. However it is a start.
But here’s a thought for you all, we know that Europe and UK government wants existing workforces upskilled and qualified, that’s a simple fact. We also know there’s some cash in the system to do that (getting it is another matter altogether) and that’s also fact.
So, let me ask you, what’s the eassiest way to get everyone to upskill in ANY profession? You see, every industry, trade or whatever would likely go through exactly the same tedious, torturous arguments and discussions we’ve seen on here on the subject, but in the end it comes down to doing one simple thing…
You make it a legal requirement and then there’s no choice, no debate and little argument. Everyone simply must comply.
K.
Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
kwatt wrote:Mal, where did the whole quango thing come from? If a quango is formed it won’t be by us but it would be forced by government. Not a lot we can do about it really as we are currently totally unregulated and have no governing body that represents enough of the trade to make the slightest difference to any imposed legislation.
Oh and the taxpayers would foot the bill.
You and I are already paying tax. (I hope)
Sorry to use the word Quango but I am generalising. I am ( re-prase )WE are sick of what has beeen enforced upon us since Thatcher days, mostly European. I cannot believe that any governing body will not have an acountant that will insist on making a profit, at my expence, sorry my customers. (yes I am part Scotish!!!)
There is a current issue about the “Cumberland Sausage”and can it still be called that. My local butcher cannot understand why the confusion, his sausage’s have always been “Cumberland sausages” for generations, why does he need legislation to call it that, if you dont want it then dont buy it, Its still Cumb. S. BUT there is a highly paid Quango (loosley phrased) who are being funded by tax payers trying to stop him.
With all the trepidation between disparate parties in this trade, well, I don’t think I have to tell you the chances do I of any one organising anything meaningful? That’s where we’re a bit different
Me, I’d love to see a proper certificate as it would give anyone entering this industry a chance even if they left but I think the current NVQ is too limited in its scope to accomplish that. However it is a start.But here’s a thought for you all, we know that Europe and UK government wants existing workforces upskilled and qualified, that’s a simple fact. We also know there’s some cash in the system to do that (getting it is another matter altogether) and that’s also fact.
So, let me ask you, what’s the eassiest way to get everyone to upskill in ANY profession? You see, every industry, trade or whatever would likely go through exactly the same tedious, torturous arguments and discussions we’ve seen on here on the subject, but in the end it comes down to doing one simple thing…
You make it a legal requirement and then there’s no choice, no debate and little argument. Everyone simply must comply.
K. I wondered who would bring up your last para.!!! But thats where it will end up, and it will have to be privatly funded.(Prescott/Brown) Probably overseen by Regional Assemblies(England) in Scotland you may have something different.
OK if there is European money available, could it be used to fund our upskilling and not be passed on to our customers? they already pay increased levels of stealth tax.
Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
It is good to see this thread finally getting more positive.
Because that is the point of the NVQ the candidate must firstly want the qualification and secondly be determined to succeed.
The purpose of the assessor is simply that to “assess” whilst we can help and support the candidate and steer them in the right direction 80{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the work must be done by the candidate with guidance from the assessor.
We at CREATE are only just starting to map out this process for you the true professionals of this industry. We fully understand the pressures and time restraints placed on you as small businesses and sole traders.
Our intention is to map this out so as you have the absolute minimum downtime with the majority of your assessments actually being done on the job whilst you are earning your daily crust.
Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
Ultrazapp wrote:
To answer the questions from some of the sceptics. “Will CREATE make money out of this? As CREATE has exactly the same business overheads as yourselves (I have three service engineers on the road) and on costs that would make a small republic shudder.“I bl**dy hope so what do you all think we are a “Charity”
Andy Reade CREATE
Andy , I don`t think you can give an overall view and unbiased opinion on what is required of this industry if your company stands to benefit from what is being suggested here regarding NVQ training. I`m not saying you`re not entitled to your opinion the same as everyone else but when it`s posted here it looks a bit like a sales pitch IMO.
Bryan
Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
Ultrazapp wrote:
Because that is the point of the NVQ the candidate must firstly want the qualification and secondly be determined to succeed.
Well I am certain that I would be in that category, however, I am 58 years old, any attempt to get funding at my age would almost certainly be laughed at. I have no ‘paper’ qualifications, learning ‘on the job’ with the early help of Hotpoint training schools. I have been a self employed ‘sole trader’ for 27 years, I have not advertised in any shape or form for over 22 years, with a busy work load all of the time, I must be doing something right. I would find it very difficult to take a sustained period of time away from work and the costs involved, even if £2,000 is an upper, ‘guesstimate’ , would give me cause to wonder if it is a worthwhile exercise for an ‘old git’ like myself.Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
iadom wrote:Well I am certain that I would be in that category, however, I am 58 years old, any attempt to get funding at my age would almost certainly be laughed at. I have no ‘paper’ qualifications, learning ‘on the job’ with the early help of Hotpoint training schools, I have not advertised in any shape or form for over 22 years, with a busy work load all of the time, I must be doing something right. I would find it very difficult to take a sustained period of time away from work and the costs involved, even if £2,000 is an upper, ‘guesstimate’ , would give me cause to wonder if it is a worthwhile exercise for an ‘old git’ like myself.
Well said Jim! 🙂Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
I’m coming up 47, so 18 years left. This will probably land on us within 5 years, so I’m going to have to deal with it.
I’ve been involved in the industry for nearly 20 years, self-employed for 14. Like Mal, I have thousands of customers who seem to like us and stay with us. I hate coming back from holiday, the answering machine is overflowing with people prepared to wait for our services.
I have had the benefit of an ‘A’ level and college education, so I’m not scared of an NVQ, I rather welcome it. Hopefully with plenty of experience I won’t have to spend too much time in the classroom, mainly the “practical” stuff and at the end of it, I get a “Government Approved” stamp which I can (and will) use in my advertising.
You never know, it might dispose of most of the idiots working round Leeds, or show them for what they are. It should introduce an “Official” level of accountability, which would be great.
There seems to be an issue over cost. A little parallel might be to say that we buy spares and pass them on at a profit. For this we buy a qualification and sell our “approved” knowledge at a profit.
I really don’t have a problem with this at all.
Chris.
Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
Bryan
I have answered your reply with a private message.
Iadom
My father has just had his 80th birthday and has in the last week taken his first flying lesson (Birthday Present). In my book there is no such thing as an old git (your words) definitely not mine.
MalthevikingI agree well said, anyone that has retained a customer base for 22 years deserves respect. Should it not be the case that this customer base is defended against the minority with no insurance, no calibrated meters, no overheads and no cares in the world?
Re: NVQ for the Domestic Appliance industry.
No one has picked up on “ultrazapps” comment ” and the local taxi driver has just unblocked a drain pump for a £10 (Beer Money for Friday night).
I wish I could afford to work for beer money, less tax, £10 wouldn’t cover itI apologise to my customers when I give them the invoice, I usually say the repairs have cost this much but the goverment has charged you for my services, (VAT)
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