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Re: Sold The First One
Jeremy
We can’t be all things to every business.
If at this moment in time we are not in your playing field then we need to learn a lesson and eventually cover your concerns.
However, a guarantee that covers the risk factor is impossible.We (UKW) have invested 18 months and tens of thousands of pounds to get where we are with this project today. The guys who are selling the product are taking a risk to, we need to support them better and thats what we are doing.
I honestly can’t see how we can indemnify you or your business against such a risk, as you require. It’s just not possible to underwrite a new project like this, to that degree.
The other things such as POS and spares we are turning around, technical back up has been addressed and over the next three weeks we will put most concerns to bed.
My thanks to those who are taking the risk to enable this project to get of the ground, I hope we can include you in that crowd Jeremy, eventually.
KevinRe: Sold The First One
Hi Jeremy
Sean here the guy who called round your house with Rob and Drank all your coffee and smoked half your fags.
The one who came and pitched the idea to you a member of a free to use website that was created by the indies for the indies and has recieved glowing universal praise from the guy’s it was designed to help,support and promote.
We have done nothing since day one of this community other than try to facilitate the ideas and suggestions and propositions that have been put forward either on the site or those debated at the free to attend national meetings that we have put on evry six moths since the site began explicitly for the members of that community.
You expressed an interest in the idea of us all working together to improve our lot as independent domestic appliance repairers.
Not one single brand that you could mention in the history of this trade has ever treated the indies with as much respect. Mention one brand that has tried to help and support our trade as much as the guys within this community have.
No one is holding a gun to your head to take part. If you feel it is not for you at this point in time then that is both your perogative and decision.
The fact still remains that the deal we put on the table will be honoured.
Have we been delayed ? YES
Will it be sorted ? YES
Will ISE be the most respected and supported brand by the indies in the UK ? YES
Why ? Because they created it !
We can wait for the few doubting thomas’s to follow on behind in the tracks of the pioneers, and when they catch up we’ll still be magnanimous enough to welcome them. 😉
Sean
Re: Sold The First One
I assumed (wrongly) from the following quotation that year 2 to 4 warranty was underwritten by D & G
kheath wrote:Where a customer buys a £389.99 package (1+5) we will alow D&G to canvass that customer for an extended Labour warranty for year 2 to 5. That work will in turn come back to ISE and be passed to agents as a extended labour call. This work will be paid @ £60.00 plus Vat although ISE will charge D&G £65.00 plus Vat. We will offset our admin charges by retaining £5.00 per call.
Hope that helps
Kevin
Exactly how much would it cost per machine for the year 2 to 5 labour warranty to be underwritten by D & G.and thus eliminate the risk for the seller of the machine.
Andy
Re: Sold The First One
andy2 wrote:Exactly how much would it cost per machine for the year 2 to 5 labour warranty to be underwritten by D & G.and thus eliminate the risk for the seller of the machine.
Probably too much although there are other ways. If you care to ask them I’m sure that they will give you a price.
For us, we decided that it was not a viable option for the moment.
See I don’t get this risk thing, it’s not your risk, it’s a manufacturer’s guarantee and therefore the risk lies with the manufacturer, not the retailer. And just like any other manufacturer, whether they choose to underwrite or not is entirely dependent on their own business but I can tell you that most of you that sell already sell appliances with a guarantee that is not in any way underwritten.
In the end it’s up to you to decide what you choose to sell or not sell we’re not here to tell you or talk you into submission. You know the score, we’ve been honest and told you all we can and if you can find another manufacturer that would even discuss this I’d be surprised.
And if you’re really not that confident in our ability then you can always sell it as a 5+1 package which is totally with CDA, unless of course they’re going bust as well?
K.
Re: Sold The First One
Replying to my own posts again. 🙄
Sorry folks I’ve spent two days fighting with a server here that has ten drives in it of which one is playing up and it’s, well, making me a tad cranky as I can’t get to the root of the problem. I will solve it, if it bloody kills me, I will fix it.
To put this the best and most simple I can…
With a 1+5 all the warranty responsibilities are held by CDA.
With 5×5 ONLY the year 2 to 5 labour is with ISE.
That is the current position. So the only real risk, per my comments earlier, are that IF and it’s a big “if”, ISE went down only the labour would be killed on years 2 to 5.
IF CDA went under it would pose a far larger problem. Again, hardly likely IMO.
IF Beko went down then there would be a problem with spares and factory stuff, but again I think that’s extremely unlikely to say the least. And even at that spares could still be aquired.
As you can see there’s a lot of “if’s” to create any scenario where it could be considered a disaster which is why I guess I’ve perhaps been a bit flippant on this subject as the risks are just so low it’s unreal. I really think that this has become a mountain from a molehill.
The thing that I suppose has irked me a little on the subject is that we have put all this together for your and our own businesses to give long-term stability, that was the whole design of the thing from the outset. Perhaps I’m just not too good at getting that across. 😕
K.
Re: Sold The First One
Whoa guys,
If you sell the package @ £389.99 then the 12 month Labour guarantee is underwritten by CDA, it’s built into the price. Therefore labour in years 2 to 5 are either
1) a chargeable call
2) underwritten by a 4 year labour warranty that we allow D&G to canvass.Only the seller can do the service, unless the seller bites the dust, in which case we will reasign the customer to a.n. other agent in the area.
You have not assumed anything wrongly Andy, the 1+5 package is totally underwritten by the price of the appliance from CDA. Thats why we went that route, it gives us all more protection and less exposure to risk.
In the case of the 5+5 package, the labour for years 2 to 5 is carried in the extra cost of the package. Therefore £60.00 from every sale is put into a warranty account and kept seperate from the ISE running account. This account will be used to fund labour warranty and that is all.
This is the only direct risk to yourselves that is not covered by a manufacturer. Yes, we can get this cover underwritten by an insurance company and indeed we have several who would wish to do it.
However it adds cost to the policy as they won’t do the administration of it for free as we intend.So the only risk to the seller is if ISE fails to live up to the year 2 to 5 labour warranty, full stop.
As Kwatt says we can’t do much about CDA going bust, but we feel a company with £25 million turnover and experienced in delivering 5 year parts on its existing range, is a decent bet!So as a company, we aim to increase the reliability of the appliance to reduce the year 2 to 5 interventions therefore increasing the size of the pot put aside for such events.
Therefore in 5 years the remainder of the pot becomes the ISE profit and either used to produce dividens or be re invested into future schemes.Please ask questions, but don’t under estimate our attention to detail for the mechanics of how this is all possible. We have investigated many avenues to bring this project to fruition.
Thats why we think this is a package undeliverable by any other company. We have heard of others who are copying our idea, and good luck to them. In the case of one, we have already seen their appliance in Germany at Domo Technica and its rubbish, so good luck to all who want to compete with our £50.00 and £60.00 job rates, because with rubbish reliability the job rate won’t be anywhere near ours.
KevinRe: Sold The First One
I think it is probably time to examine what is exactly on the table here.
First of all let me say that i think you guys that put this thing together are taking this too personally. I for one do not doubt your motives, and i dont think anybody else does. Obviously there is some profit in this for yourselves and there is no problem with that, you people have put a lot of time and effort into this. The whole concept is brilliant.
The doubts that members are expressing are valid concerns that needed addressing and these issues will always come to light eventually because people like Jeremy (who i dont believe was being aggresive, just honest and straightforward) are people who think things through. My only problem with Jeremy is that he did not post in the 5 year warranty thread where the issue was originally raised. 😉
Saying there is no risk for the seller of ISE is just not true. It has become obvious that there is risk involved. I have no problems with CDA they are big enough to be able to absorb any shortfall that might occur from the ISE project. If the worst came to the worst they could sell them through their normal outlets. Where i do have serious concerns is in the liability that rests in ISE Ltd.
Do not misread this as lack of trust in you Ken, Kevin etc because it is not that, as i will explain.
I assumed wrongly that years 2 to 5 would be like an extended warranty, (that is a premium is paid to an insurance company (eg. D & G) who then assume liability for any claims against breadown costs). This would have provided security for both the seller and the buyer. It has now transpired that this is not the case.
As in the case of CDA a firm like D & G has the resources to be able to absorb any shortfall from the ISE project if they get their sums wrong and it costs them more than they received in premiums. They can easily claw the loss back by generaly raising premiums slightly if need be.
Because ISE Ltd being a new company does not have these resources it is dependant upon the fund that accumulates by £60 every time a machine is sold (see Kevins post). This allows one £60 labour charge to be paid out of the fund for each machine before the fund goes into the red. The question is: will the average breakdown rate be more than once in the four year period. If it is then ISE Ltd has serious problems. This is the very real risk that each one who sells machines faces.
If ISE Ltd becomes insolvent then every seller who has outstanding 2 to 5 year warranty liabilities wiil have to either tell their customers that they have no labour warranty or stand the cost of doing the repairs for free until the warranty expires. My understanding is that as the seller any failure to honour the warranty could also result in a legal action being brought against you for breach of contract.
So to put it in a nutshell it all rests on how reliable the machine is.
I fervently hope that this project is sucessful and there are no problems, but i think it is only fair and just that the facts are laid out for everyone to examine.
As i said in the other thread
http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/modules.p … highlight=
the sucess of this project depends upon the members getting involved wholeheartedly, confident that they have a degree of security. If this important feel good factor is not present it will be a struggle.
I can see an easy way out of this problem. CDA obviously believe in this project as they are already heavily involved. Why not let CDA assume the liability for the 2 to 5 labour warranty also for a bit bigger slice of the cake and guarantee in writing that the warranty will be honoured. This would make everyone happy and in my opinion guarantee the sucess of the ISE project.
At some time when the project is on a more secure footing financially and accurate data is available re: the breakdown rate then ISE Ltd could assume its original role.
Andy 😀
Re: Sold The First One
Sorry Andy,
do you have any idea of the intervention rates that apply in year 1 of products life?
Most manufacturers operate within 4{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} for the first 12 months. Therefore the rates for years 2 to 5 are also based as a percentage. I’m not telling you what they are, but, insurance companies do extremely well out of them.
As an example D&G at a meeting of their service partners 2 years ago were quoting 385,000 service interventions on several (3) million live policy holders, across the board, ie all ages. you can do the maths for yourself.
We are much smaller in scale but the percentages apply, approx. We also have the advantage of investing the money from the sale of the appliance, 12 months before it might be needed. Whilst we might be smaller we believe the economies of scale will work for us.
Whilst not trying to convince you of anything, we have done our homework and we are pushing ahead with our own 5+5, you still have the option of 1+5 which negates the risk to you somewhat.
Kevin
Re: Sold The First One
kheath wrote:do you have any idea of the intervention rates that apply in year 1 of products life?
We are much smaller in scale but the percentages apply, approx. We also have the advantage of investing the money from the sale of the appliance, 12 months before it might be needed. Whilst we might be smaller we believe the economies of scale will work for us.
Whilst not trying to convince you of anything, we have done our homework and we are pushing ahead with our own 5+5, you still have the option of 1+5 which negates the risk to you somewhat.
Kevin
In answer to your question – no
But as an engineer i do have a reasonable idea of how many times i might get called to an appliance in years 2 to 5 years of its life.
That is a good point Kevin that you will be able to accumulate the fund for twelve months before it may be needed.
Regarding the figures you quoted for D & G. Lets not assume that these figures can be used as a guide for project ISE. The reason being that these figures cover a whole range of makes and price range. Whilst with the ISE machine all your eggs are effectivly in one basket.
If it turns out to be a bad investment then you have problems big time. And lets not forget that these are not Miele or Seimens but Beko produced machines. Not renowned for quality, although i personally have nothing against Beko products.
With regard to your last comment “Whilst not trying to convince you of anything”, then maybe you should be. There are still a lot of unbelievers in ISE that need convincing and (i will say it again) without them on board this thing is never going to work.
I am not trying to sabotage this venture, i have actually commited to the ISE project myself with my hard earned cash and i have confidence that the £449 packagewill sell OK. But i have to admit that this weekends revelations have seriously shaken my confidence.
Andy
PS. I also note that none of the statements that i made have been challenged so we can take them as kosher?
Re: Sold The First One
andy2 wrote:
Regarding the figures you quoted for D & G. Lets not assume that these figures can be used as a guide for project ISE.Totally agree with you on that Andy , those figures are based on a large percentage loosing their paperwork and forgetting they even bought a warranty. Some others simply can`t be bothered with the call centres , waiting a week to get a repair done or taking a day off work. How do I know , because like everyone else here I have them as paying customers every week.
No customer who buys an ISE from the local , friendly engineer who they`ve known for years is going to forget they have the 5 year warranty and they`ll certainly know exactly who to call or even knock on his door.
On the issue of the 1+5 package it`s not really such a tempting deal for potential customers.
Bryan
Re: Sold The First One
One point that a lot seem to forget is that ukw is a very broad church. We have some members that are the owners of multi engineer operations, whilst the vast majority are one man and van businesses.
The multi engineer operators tend to attract most of the commercial work as they are usually able to provide greater coverage and skill sets for manufacturers and other work providers.
The whole ethos behind what we are trying to do is to be as inclusive as possible, and not leave anyone on the outside
We are all aware that manufacturers are not helping the independents with things like technical support and spares pricing. We are even now beginning to see sealed tubs and more recently, laptop dependent software repairs to modern electronic control systems being introduced.
All of this is specifically designed to push the indies out of the trade altogether unless you happen to be their appointed service provider.
So what do we do ? Bury our heads in the sand and pretend that things
might get better ? Or work together to form our own brand that is designed to allow a more fair and equitable deal to be provided to the independent.A deal that will allow the indies to have greater control over their own destinies.
A deal that does not exclude the sole trader.
A deal that comes with training and technical support.
A deal that allows us to provide a product that was specifically chosen to be readily accessible and serviceable.
I have to admit that it is more than a little puzzling to see members
being far quicker to put their faith in existing manufacturers who’s only ambition is to put them out of business. Rather than trust fellow members of their own community who are in the same boat as themselves.Does sh*t happen ? of course it does, ask people who bought a Homark appliance, or a Rover car, or an extended warranty from Power House.
We are not asking to be treated any differently from any other brand but if the concept behind ISE is drowned at birth then we will never know the opportunities and potential we could have achieved.
Some of you seem to think that this one appliance is the whole story when in truth it is only the beginning.
For us to build the ISE brand we need your support which in turn will enable us to source other products and partners with even better deals for you and your customers. To achieve that we have to prove that we can shift product in volume and build a trading history.
At the end of the day it’s up to you guy’s to help us to make it happen. It is my belief that together we can move mountains if we can only learn to belive in ourselves perhaps thats the real logg jam here.
Sean Delaney
Re: Sold The First One
Bryan wrote:Totally agree with you on that Andy , those figures are based on a large percentage loosing their paperwork and forgetting they even bought a warranty. Some others simply can`t be bothered with the call centres , waiting a week to get a repair done or taking a day off work. How do I know , because like everyone else here I have them as paying customers every week.
No the figures are based on historical data on any brand/appliance’s performance and failure rates. We have discussed those figures long and hard before coming up with the package and, in order to keep the price sensible, we elected not to outsource the risk such as it is. We’d rather you had the money than an insurer and we’d also be adding a level of complexity which would require authorisation for each call intervention from a third party, so we’d lose that control.
To eleborate, if we hit our target we’re talking about ~250 calls a year here, year on year which obviously builds as the years go by.
However there is more than sufficient funding to cover that and that’s enough for you to work the math back yourself.
Bryan wrote:On the issue of the 1+5 package it`s not really such a tempting deal for potential customers.
Which is why we now have two.
This whole package was done by myself, Kevin and John Hopwood and, since nobody has yet taken me up on the offer, if you’ve any concerns at all I’m more than happy to get John to talk to you about it. But you can rest assured that it was extremely well researched and costed before we would let it become reality and the numbers didn’t just get scribbled out on the back of an old fag packet.
K.
Re: Sold The First One
Del wrote:I have to admit that it is more than a little puzzling to see members being far quicker to put their faith in existing manufacturers who’s only ambition is to put them out of business. Rather than trust fellow members of their own community who are in the same boat as themselves.
Does sh*t happen ? of course it does, ask people who bought a Homark appliance, or a Rover car, or an extended warranty from Power House.
Sean Delaney
Sean everything that you say in your post is spot on and i think this whole issue is summed up by the above quote. The issue is:
Do the benefits of supporting this project outweigh the potential risk of damage to my business / finances?
Can i have faith in the guys who set this up.
Maybe it might have been better if this whole thing had been presented differently and you had said up front. “Look lads there is an element of risk in this for you, but look at the benefits – we believe its worth the risk”.
Rather than this painful process of dragging out the true situation in the forums.
Re: Sold The First One
Andy this isn’t painful, at all.
We’re more than pleased to open up the facts where we can. Have you tried having this conversation with any of the manufacturers, Work Providers or insurance companies? Do you think they would elaborate and discuss these sort of subjects with you?
Thanks for your views and perceptions, it’s what the forums are for and it allows everyone to consider their own positions on the subjects.
Kevin
Re: Sold The First One
kheath wrote:Most manufacturers operate within 4{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} for the first 12 months. Kevin
Kevin – could you please clarify what this means.
Are you saying that for every 100 washers produced only 4 break down in the first 12 months?
If so, is the ISE 1st year warranty based on this assumption?
Andy
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