True or false?

[aqualectric]

I was talking to an electrician today and he asked me how I got on with hard wired cooker / hob repairs and electrical testing them. Now I know this guy and it wasn’t a trick question; he stated that their company had just completed a NICEIC audit inspection and the subject of cookers / hobs came up in it.
The NICEIC inspector said that on repairing or installing a cooker (hard wired) the repairer / electrician / installer was now legally responsible for the integrity of the cooker or hob wiring right back to the consumer unit and the efficiency of the MCB and RCD protecting that circuit.
Never heard of this before and AFAIK this has not been flagged up on UKW before. I’ve had a quick look online and I cannot see anything that states this as fact.

Anyone know if this is true?

Steve.

[Andy jones]

Re: True or false?

I’ve been told that’s the case when installing a cooker but not when repairing one.

[lee8]

Re: True or false?

I’d like to comment, but it would include the words education and qualification.

So leave it alone.

[Andy jones]

Re: True or false?

Just spoken to an electrician mate of mine and he’s insistent that if a new cooker is installed then you are responsible for everything back to the consumer unit, however just repairing it means you are not making changes to the installation. I’ve got one now where the terminal block has burnt out on the cooker so will have to pass it over as it needs a cable as well

[philfish]

Re: True or false?

It’s been a few years since I sat my part p but part p states you are allowed to change like for like without the need to certificate it or notify and that includes cables, sockets, cooker outlets etc, even in special locations such as the kitchen.
Your not altering the spec your just replacing damaged part like for like, so the design or spec hasn’t changed so what is there to test? Test for safety yes, not installation.
Unless they’ve changed it all again and I’ve missed it,but I doubt it because even 80{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the sparks haven’t passed their inspection and test so can’t even sign it off themselves anyway!
Phil

[stratfordgirl]

Re: True or false?

The latest edition of the Part P Approved Document (2013 edition) states that Part P approval for installing a new cooker is not required unless a new cooker circuit is needed (You’ll find the relevant section if you search the document for the word cooker.):

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

However, the installation of all fixed electrical equipment must still comply with Part P, so I guess in that sense the installer is responsible for the ensuring the circuit as a whole meets the regulations, even though they do not need to certify it under Part P.

[Allsorts]

Re: True or false?

I have had this question posed to me many times.. The regulation is as far as I understand it, as Philfish says; you are allowed to change like for like, hence you are able you renew the cooker and the connecting cable so long as you use the same type of cable. However, I understand that you may use a smaller size cable if needed and correct for the cooker being installed, but not one of an increased size.

This does also mean, again as far as I am aware, that if there has never been a cooker installed at the cooker point then the testing needs to take place.

[Andy jones]

Re: True or false?

Clear as mud then

[Devlin Maguire]

Re: True or false?

False, but if you connect a cooker using twin & earth flat PVC/PVC then you have contravened the regulations( big yellow books out in the car so cant quote specific reg, ) must be HOR7N flexible cable, movable appliance, the number of times I have seen proper installation is minimal I always carry 4mm and 6mm 3C,
Devlin

[Martin]

Re: True or false?

Devlin Maguire wrote:(big yellow books out in the car so cant quote specific reg, )

We would appreciate you quote us from your big yellow book next chance you get please. There’s a bunch of guys here desperate this question is cleared up once and for all…!!!

[philfish]

Re: True or false?

Thought the regs book was red? Did mine 5years ago so might of changed, I know the amacus book is yellow which is a good little book. Must remember the regs and part p are two different things.
I know what you say about the flexible cable, and in theory your right, but, doesn’t flexible cable have less current carrying capacity due to it being stranded and twin and earth being solid core plus I wonder how much 10 mm flex would be even if it could carry that sort of load. Just imagine it trying to cope with a 15kw induction range. Think people will still use good old twin and earth, I suppose it’s all down to if you class it has hard wired or portable.
Phil

[stratfordgirl]

Re: True or false?

I remember when installing an AEG oven in my first house (back in 1992, before Part P) ordering in a short length of 6mm flex from my local wholesaler who didn’t hold stock. it was many times the price of T&E, but I felt the cost was worthwhile as the installation instructions specified flex and it felt much more durable.

However, lifted from the IET forum (posted 2010, so not necessarily still current):

Reg 521.9.2 “Stationary equipment which is moved temporarily for the purposes of connecting, cleaning etc., e.g. a cooker or a flush-mounting unit for installations in a false floor, may be connected with a non-flexible cable but if subject to vibration in use shall be connected by a flexible cable or cord.”

[Devlin Maguire]

Re: True or false?

17th ed was brown, red, green now yellow, and ‘£80 quid a pop one of the IET,s money spinners,
A cooker is not classed as stationary, nor fixed, it is a movable appliance I will dig out the reg this week

[Hollytree_Technical]

Re: True or false?

A couple of definitions from the regs:

BS7671:2015 (Yellow Book)

Fixed Equipment. Equipment designed to be fastened to a support or otherwise secured in a specific location.

Mobile Equipment. (portable equipment (deprecated)). Electrical equipment which is moved while in operation or which can easily be moved from one place to another while connected to the supply.

Stationary Equipment. Electrical equipment which is either fixed or which has a mass exceeding 18kg and is not provided with a carrying handle.

Movable Equipment – not recognised by BS7671:2015

Now here is where the fun really starts (and probably most of the confusion:

BS7671:2008 (Red Book)
521.9.2 Stationary equipment which is moved temporarily for the purposes of connecting, cleaning etc., e.g. a cooker or a flush-mounting unit for installations in a false floor, may be connected with a non-flexible cable but if subject to vibration in use shall be connected by a flexible cable or cord.

BS7671:2011 (Green Book)
521.9.2 Equipment that is intended to be moved in use shall be connected by flexible cables, except equipment supplied by contact rails.
521.9.3 Stationary equipment which is moved temporarily for the purposes of connecting, cleaning etc., e.g. cookers or a flush-mounting units for installations in false floors, shall be connected with flexible cable. If the equipment is not subject to vibration then non-flexible cables may be used.

BS7671:2015 (Yellow Book)
521.9.2 Equipment that is intended to be moved in use shall be connected by flexible cables, except equipment supplied by contact rails.
521.9.3 Stationary equipment which is moved temporarily for the purposes of connecting, cleaning etc., e.g. cookers or a flush-mounting units for installations in false floors, shall be connected with flexible cable. If the equipment is not subject to vibration then non-flexible cables may be used.

I will let you make your own minds up but as far as I am concerned a cooker subjects its cable to negligible vibration (does you soup vibrate on the top?) and appears to be classified as stationary equipment, therefore I find it perfectly acceptable to connect with non-flexible cable and would be happy to argue the point in court if it ever came to it.

Jem

[kwatt]

Re: True or false?

Just to throw more confusion onto this particular fire…

The builders/estate agents seem to regard a freestanding cooker as not fixed and moveable, i.e. people take them with them when they move home or, can do so fairly easily should they wish to, unhook it, pack it, move it.

Built in products are regarded as fixed and a part of the home when the house is sold, i.e. a permanent fixture. They are meant to be left when people move home.

I think that the logic is that, if it can be moved without removing screws etc then it’s not “fixed” and the opposite for built in stuff. It’s a pain and many people, as we know, can’t operate a screwdriver so it’s regarded as a fixture.

But then there’s range cookers.. moveable? Technically yes and freestanding but…

Then the ones they build in by accident. Lawrence had a belter recently where a Smeg had been tiled into place, literally the feet were “in” the tiles, completely immovable without taking the flooring up totally. Fixed… not fixed?

(Certainly not moveable for service, like that’s a new one)

Probably like a lot of regs, open to interpretation circumstance dependent.

What way the ball would bounce in a court of law… place your bets folks and watch the wheel spin… where it stops nobody knows…

K.

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