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Re: Zanussi FL1084 washing machine sticking at end of cycle
Hi Martin, Thanks very much for that link – at LOT less than the £160 for a new unit. I’m currently getting the timer out so that I can hopefully SEE what is going on with the advance – can’t do it until later this afternoon tho’ Thanks in the meantime for your help !
Re: Zanussi FL1084 washing machine sticking at end of cycle
Hi again, I’ve had the timer knob and dial off a few times , and there’s no damage there. Getting back to the holding solenoid, is this the ONLY way that timer advance can be delay (I had been monitoring the timer motor voltage, and I’m sure I saw it dissappear at one point. The solenoid lever seems very “loose”, so I just wonder whether it is the problem. Ever had the back off one of these timers (I think I know what you’ll say, but I’m desperate !!) ?
Re: Zanussi FL1084 washing machine sticking at end of cycle
Hello Martin, Thanks for the reply about the solenoid. The funny thing is that the solenoid only ever seems to activate at the START of program K, and never beyond that. And yet the fact that the timer sticks at N seems to correlate with the ‘holding’ phase – wierd ! I should say thatI have replaced the 30/60 deg thermostat and the early phases seems to show that to be working (haven’t actually measured the water temp, but I hear the heater in action). I seem to have a load of conflicting symptoms – can’t help feeling that the problem is in the timer itself.
Re: Frozen drain on Hotpoint Combination 8562
Well, I said that I would come back with my experiences, so here we go !! (I must admit that my original diagnosis was NOT correct, and that my findings surprised me) Naturally, I started at the funnel at the top of the drain hose. I trimmed the insulation back working outwards from the funnel. It was no surprise that water-laden foam disappeared rapidly as I worked upwards and sideways. But what did surprise me was that it also disappeared in the downward direction after a few inches (I expected this to have continued right down to the ice-ball at the bottom of the hose) Incidentally, it doesn’t change my original view that not having a waterproof connection at the funnel/drain pipe connection is a poor “design” as, under fault conditions, it allows water to enter the insulation !! (What price adhesive seal ??) I then started trimming away insulation from the ice-ball at the base of the hose. Working upwards, the water-laden foam ran out fairly quickly, but it did spread sideways and backwards, gradually reducing. It had reduced to a fairly low level by the time that the limits were reached (i.e. where I couldn’t realistically remove further foam (backwards & sideways left) due to the cabinet. The extent of moisture towards the centre at first decreased, but then increased again, and I found a secondary ice-ball in the area where the coolant pipe entered the insulation. However, the major “find” occurred when I removed the original drain hose – the bottom panel was rusty on both sides where the the drain hose exits through the panel, even though there is a “seal” on the upper side of this panel. But the major issue is the length of the hose – it ends EXACTLY as it exits the bottom panel seal (this allows [inevitable] water drops hanging on the tube bottom edge to “spread” sideways and then the [inevitable] rust loosens the seal – once that happens, the flow of water into the foam is considerable [by capillary action]. Once a path exists between the source and cooling element, freezing of water-laden foam occurs and hence the final condition) This could have been avoided by a drain hose which continued by about another few mm after exiting the base panel. My suggestion is that if you find such a situation in other machines, then a short length of smaller diameter extension tube inserted into the drain hose will certainly help to avoid this problem ! (water dropplets are then more likely to drop off or evaporate before then can do any damage). My solution was more radical – I replaced the hose (after sealing the funnel to shell joint) and led it down the outside of the [replaced] foam insulation and long enough to dip into the dish on top of the compressor. I must admit that adding moisture to cure the new foam insulation required “courage” (after cutting out masses of water-laden insulation) but it HAS to be done otherwise it won’t cure !! For reference, I replaced the outer covering at the rear with sheet cardboard to which I had glued aluminium foil (necessary to reflect heat from the radiator panel) and this worked quite well. Before I did any work, I did a quick test of the duty-ratio of the on/off time of the freezer compressor (on=15 mins, off=10 mins) which worked out at 60{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}. I was gratified with the results of doing the same measurement after the above work (on= 7 mins, off=10 mins) 41{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}. (The freezer was reloaded with exactly the same food as removed originally, and time allowed to stabilize). I have JUST gone out and purchased a freezer thermometer and it currently registers degrees -18 C so the thermostat seems to be O.K. However, what DID surprise me is that the “Low temp” indicator did not illuminate when I started the appliance up again after the work. Deduced that the indicator is driven directly from the thermostat, so can only assume that THAT part of the thermostat is not working, or the indicator itself is duff. My only query at this stage is whether the latest on/off time measured above is typical ? Hope relating my experiences may be of some help to somebody else in the same situation !!!
kwatt wrote:You are welcome Doug, sometimes a good discussion is positively entertaining.
Please do let us know how it goes though.
K.
Yea, I’ll agree with that !!!
Did you see the one recently on CM’s forum – can’t link to the original as it was “closed” by the moderators at 20-odd pages when things got VERY heated !!! The follow-on is at http://www.kelsey-forums.co.uk/cgi-bin/ … 1206991332
but I think “rick-a” and his body rot problem have “gone to ground”Re: Frozen drain on Hotpoint Combination 8562
Oh dear !! I’m back here again !!!
I don’t want to leave with any bad feelings about our “discussion” !!! You have your views, I have mine !!! Peace ! I DO respect your experience, and value it, and despite previous comments, I DO take your comments on board !! Thank you one and all !! 😀Re: Frozen drain on Hotpoint Combination 8562
hotpnt wrote:just as a point, i did see the article you refered to in your first post, so your assumptions were correct there, however, that topic was for a Servis machine, different make, different system/drain/cabinet, so although it was same simptoms, there were different causes,
Good luck in your repair, and i hope if its sucessfull you wil let us knowAgreed, but the principles were the same – water leak, ice-ball, and that’s EXACTLY what I found, as I’ve stated many times !
Despite my previous “Bye”, thank you – I will report back ! (The question is, “WHEN” will I know if I’ve nbeen successful ? …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. !!!)
Re: Frozen drain on Hotpoint Combination 8562
kwatt wrote:Enough please guys eh?
One of the things our friends at Hotpoint used to do for a laugh was not to seal the evaporators that ran the full length of the back of the fridge freezers, I don’t know if that is one of those but insulation failure was inevitable on them. It wasn’t the drain that was the issue, it was time and seepage into the insulation that killed them. I have to assume that somewhere along the way they sussed it and cured the problem but, at 8-10 years, they usually failed if they lasted that long.
Water goes down Doug, it’s a gravity thing.
Then what happens is that the foam starts to fill with the water causing the breakdown of the insulation. The actual insulation is still there, doesn’t go anywhere, but because there’s no longer air in it to isolate the cabinet you get the ice ball. And, as I’ve said, once it happens there’s no way back from it.
What the guys are trying to tell you is that, from a repairers point of view, it is a scrapper as it cannot be brought back to perform within the parameters which it was designed for. At least, it can’t be sensibly brought back from the dead.
Most likely the water has been seeping into the insulation for months, if not years, before you’ve actually seen the problem and, that’s the kicker with insulation failures, by the time you see it happening it’s beyond hope in 99.99{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of cases.
I used to have to re-foam old Zanussi cabinets, as will Alex and others on here as they had a design flaw on an old, old model and I can tell you from first hand experience we couldn’t save some under a year old despite massive efforts to do so. Then we got recalls on many that we thought were okay.
TBH it’s really just not worth the grief.
HTH
K.
Hi kwatt,
You ALL seem to be missing the point – when I dug the insulation out around the funnel, I pressed the “tape” holding the funnel in place against the back of the cabinet, and water oozed out !!! There is water in the insulation in that area)
I DO know that water goes “down” – hence my deduction that the ice-ball around the base of the tube has been caused by THAT water leak supplying the ball down the outside of the tube. Hence my criticism of the design (which no-one seems to support me on ! Hey, this is a DISCUSSION, supposedly ?)For the record, I agree that my chances of recovering the unit to full health is debateable – doesn’t stop me from trying, eh ? !!
I’m sorry, but we’re not getting anywhere with this “discussion” – I’ve got better things to do ! Bye
helo_75 wrote:and that, as they say, is that
how do you expect us to comment, when NONE of us have ever come across that problem
none of us know everything, we’re all good at what we do, i always work on the premise that someone, somewhere knows something you dont, and he who thinks he knows it all knows nothing
if you dont want to ‘rate’ us thats fine, the information supplied is free, advice YOU asked for and because we dont ‘think outside the box’ doesnt make us any less helpful.
you talk like your in managementso ill speak management lingo, just for you
‘touch base with the manufacturer’ , .tick all the right boxes’ and ‘exhaust all necessary avenues’
hassle hotpoint, they built it, see what their response is
thats me done
With regard to your first point, please see my last post.
I agree with your point “because we dont ‘think outside the box’ doesnt make us any less helpful” – no dispute at all !
Hassling Hotpoint after 14 years is not likely to have any effect – I don’t expect any !!
All I did was to raise a question about this design, and I have been criticised by virtually all respondents – and yet NOBODY, I repeat NOBODY has explained how ice can form in the insulation without a water leak !!!! This is NOT rocket science !! I agree that I am NOT a refrigeration expert, but I DO have a brain !!!
This discussion is not doing the reputation of this forum any good – maybe I should stop responding to future posts ?
Re: Frozen drain on Hotpoint Combination 8562
hotpnt wrote:well as i did not design it how can i answer that?, but, in your origional posts you made no mention of ice inside the insulation at the bottom, only that there was ice inside the tube at the bottom, then assumed it was frozen all the way, and why slate the ‘experts’ whom you dont rate here (several of whom have given you FREE advice in their own spare time)
Ehmmm ! By a bit of lateral thinking ?? (In my original posting, you will see a link to a similar problem, explaining how the problem arises – I had assumed that you would have read this !)
I am VERY grateful to everybody on ALL forums who offer their time and expertise to offer advice to people like me ( Don’t get me wrong – I REALLY mean that !!!)
I am PURELY making a comment on the design which NOBODY here has adequately addressed !!! (a piece of food can fall down the drain hose EVEN after 14 years and cause a temporary blockage, which causes the drain hose water to rise to the funnel, which ALLOWS the leak into the insulation, etc. ………………….. )
Re: Frozen drain on Hotpoint Combination 8562
hotpnt wrote:but how can you possibly say that a machine that has performed for 14 years has a serious design fault?, there are many freezers on the market today which dont stand much chance of lasting 5 – 10 years, but that is life. As for insulation repairs, i have not seen any companies offer this for many years, due to the cost, mess & diffculties in disposing of the old insulation, anyway, bye
You STILL have not answered my original question about the design – HOW can water get into the insulation at the base of the drain hose to form the ice-ball ?? !!! Come on, let me hear your answer (this lack of “thinking-outside-the-box” is REALLY getting to me !!! – experience is one thing and to be respected, but I know from experience that “we” don’t know it all, EVER – fact !!!)
Re: Frozen drain on Hotpoint Combination 8562
hotpnt wrote:think what you want, but 5 different engineers have now told you its scrap if you’ve cut into the insulation,(and not allowed under EU law) if you want to botch it & risk the food going off thats your choice,
good luck with the repairnow, your origional post said there was a blockage at the bottom of the pipe, you presumed it was ice, if that was the case the rear of the freezer was probably too cold, making the water that was draining out freeze & block the pipe, it may have been repairable, but once you break through the liner into the insulation you will have a big mess & ruined machine
I DIDN’t presume it was ice – I could feel the coldness of ice by putting my finger up the pipe – I tried to clear it from the bootom end and couldn’t !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So why is the insulation damp, and there is an ice-ball around the OUTSIDE of the drain pipe ???? That needs WATER !!!!! (Why ca’t you understand that ?)
helo_75 wrote:please dont spoil for a fight… theres far to much of that
ill only say it once more…. there was NEVER an issue with the insulation on that model
all we’re trying to say, through an awful lot of experience, that the repair your attempting is rarely fruitful, and the machine will ultimately require scrapping sooner rather than later
no-ones having a pop, and although others have posted several messages , you somehow singled my one innocent comment out and started to have a pop
we’ve given you your reason, you just havent taken it onboard, thats all
Believe you me, I am not the fighting type !!I don’t deny that recovery from water-impregnated insulation is “out with the jury” !!
However, I defend my observation that the design is flawed – look at the facts !!!! – No one has yet defended the original design of a seal-less joint between the cabinet and the funnel – this is the source of the leak (albeit originally caused by food particles or whatever), which causes the water in the insulation, which causes the ice ball around the drain hose, which enhances the blockage, which causes the water level in the drain hose to rise to the funnel, which causes the “poor design” to leak more water into the insulation, which adds more water to the ice- ball ………..
If no one can understand this, or can offer some sort of plausible contrary argument, then I don’t rate the “experts” on this forum (and I use quite a few !!) and am out of here ! Sorry, that’s how I see it !
Re: Frozen drain on Hotpoint Combination 8562
hotpnt wrote:try reading 5 posts back!!!!!
Do you mean ……
“well cutting the insulation, as kwatt has pointed out, you can now no longer garantee that the food inside will be safely stored,
if the tube was frozen then that would point to the freezer over freezing, possibly a sensor fault,
then again after only 14 years of useage i guess you would call that premature failure & a poor design?!, (the 8562 model was produced in 1994),
maybe if you asked for help earlier we could have provided a less drastic solution”
Tell me how a drain hose can have ice around the OUTSIDE without moisture in the insulation then ??? (This has NOTHING to do with sensor malfunction in my view – comments ?)So it’s ALL my fault because I didn’t ask for help EARLIER ??? !!! And what would that “less drastic solution” have been ???
helo_75 wrote:it has to be said, but at times people look for bigger problems than actually exist
ive NEVER seen insulation break down on one of those machines, and hotpnt has made a good point
it probably just need a sensor, or even a good defrost, what you did was somewhat excessive
now if it had been an ff72……………….
I cannot BELIEVE this !! (Meldrew ??) Originally, I DID try clearing the drain with wire – no good !! The unit HAS been defrosted regularly. FYI, ice (as found in both drain tube and surrounding insulation, cannot form without moisture (i.e. WATER, from a leak !!!!!!!)
I’m still waiting for a reason for why “I” have “wrecked a good design”
( Dales-Electronics is the only person making sensible responses here recently !! )
