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Re: I should cocoa!
DrDill wrote:
So now as you have brought up the WTA:-
1) how many members does the WTA have that have paid up?
2) what is this code of practice?
3) How have you weeded out the D##kheads?I can respond to this
1)Member Search
2)COP
3) see point 2hope that helps
LawrenceRe: I should cocoa!
Its not easy to see how many without actually scrolling through them all, but i guess over 100?
So please tell me how many of these members have been visited by a council member before admitting them as a member, in other words how many did you check to have met the criteria you profess to use to weed out the d##kheads?? How many did you check to see if they have liability insurance, test equipment, uniforms, etc,??? How many of their previous customers did you contact to verify they meet your code of practice???
Is it not the case that the WTA just enrolled members then hope that they all work to the code of practice, and correct me if i am wrong but did you not already have members before the code of practice was ratified and accepted by the office of fair trading??I say the above as when i recieved the enrolment forms it was a case of just filling them out and sending a cheque.
If i remember correctly when i joined DASA many years ago i had to give them previous customer details and copies of liability insurance and some other bits.Re: I should cocoa!
There are over 100, yes but nobody sits and keeps score, it’s not a competition.
The details are published, if you want to count them up, feel free.
Several have been visited by a representative and a lot more will be in the new year. It is not financially possible to visit every single member, especially in outlying areas, like Northern Ireland or the Outer Hebrides. It is unreasonable to expect every single member to be visited and, to my knowledge, no service association does so, certainly not in this industry due to the costs which the repair industry cannot bear.
Some applications have been rejected.
The TA doesn’t require to contact previous customers which is a pointless exercise in many ways as you will be pointed to the customers that liked the business, not the ones that were a problem.
Contact cards for current customers to get feedback roll out in January which gives real time feedback and ensures compliance to CCAS standards. The cards are to the applicable standards that are accepted across a spectrum of industries worldwide, I forget the name of it for now.
This also give unedited feedback from customers which is generally much more accurate.
The COP is not yet ratified by the OFT, it is in progress. The feedback side of things is one element of that process.
HTH
K.
Re: I should cocoa!
There are over 100, yes but nobody sits and keeps score, it’s not a competition.
The details are published, if you want to count them up, feel free.
The statements above are a bit petty, the point i am trying to make is that you can be a member of the WTA even if you dont comply with any code of practice or if you are a cowboy trader, the WTA in kens words is unable to check on every member so this leaves its membership open to abuse. With other trade bodies,ie Gas Safe(i can hear Kens groans now) you have to prove qualifications before membership.
I Like the idea of the customer contact cards, but i think you have some way to go to convince me to sign up.
Re: I should cocoa!
DrDill wrote:The statements above are a bit petty, the point i am trying to make is that you can be a member of the WTA even if you dont comply with any code of practice or if you are a cowboy trader, the WTA in kens words is unable to check on every member so this leaves its membership open to abuse. With other trade bodies,ie Gas Safe(i can hear Kens groans now) you have to prove qualifications before membership.
Not petty, factual.
Please note that neither the WTA nor DASA charge anything like the fees the organisation you mention do nor do we have a chunk of money thrown at us by the HSE to help with the infrastructure to support and promote it, which Gas Safe does.
The reality is, this trade cannot afford to do what you seem to be asking for. And that reality includes the fact that, without outside resources with no costs or strings attached, the members have to foot the bill.
Members who are already under financial duress.
I’m guessing they wouldn’t thank any organisation for the fees that they have to pay for the likes of Gas Safe on top of Gas Safe and whatever else so, they wouldn’t, as there is no legal requirement to be a member of any TA.
Gas Safe is not a TA and there is a legal requirement to be Gas Safe registered if you work on gas products commercially, so you’re not comparing apples to apples.
K.
Re: I should cocoa!
DrDill wrote:How have you weeded out the D##kheads?
I just highlighted on of the many questions you have asked since this thread has gone so way way off-topic and I don’t require you to answer. I would far rather instead ask you, DrDill, what is the point of your reasoning to question the WTA anyway? (OK Adrian went in with 2 left feet on the issue – agreed, but blimey!)
You and your company have seen fit to join RETRA which is yet another trade association is it not? With RETRA, as with the WTA, you apply to join, agree to abide by their rules & regs and pay the annual fee. Then you are in and can reap all the benefits or not as you so choose as long as you stump up the fee each year, you’re in!
It’s just another trade association, it’s what they do, what they stand for and ulitimately what you percieve as beneficial to you and your business for being associated with….your choice!
Please try to refrain from suggesting that an association like the WTA would welcome “D##heads” any more than RETRA or DASA would. The very use of such basic terminology is pointless and demeaning and only invites a critical response anyway.
Re: I should cocoa!
Martin, i didnt start with the word d##khead, that was the terminology used by Aidrian, i just took that theme oinwards!! And yes that was petty of me and yes you are right he did go in with two feet, i am guessing that he would probably want to rewrite that.
Also i think you have used a bad example of comparing RETRA and the WTA with each other, you may want to research the benifits afforded to us through RETRA, i think you may want to read the posts and research a little better before you throw in your soundbites!
Yes joining RETRA was my desision and it was done because of the many benifits and not because it gives customers the opinion that it seperates us from others, it dosnt its not that type of assosiation, the WTA in my opinion is designed to give that perception, ie that its members will work to a better standard etc, RETRA is not there for that, it is a subscription assosiation!
Martin i feel that you are trying to trip me upo and it also feels like you have some motive or secret knowledge of me and my business, if you have something to say why dont you just say it! Looking me up on google, seeing what i am a member of, what you trying to find?Re: I should cocoa!
DrDill wrote:
You read something bad about this trade every day on here, engineers without proper test equipment, engineers that steal customers property out of pumps and now engineers who would give estimates with out seeing the machine! I wonder how many of these “engineers” are members of trade assosiations? Or am i the odd one out?(My bold.)
DrDill wrote:Yes joining RETRA was my desision and it was done because of the many benifits and not because it gives customers the opinion that it seperates us from others, it dosnt its not that type of assosiation, the WTA in my opinion is designed to give that perception, ie that its members will work to a better standard etc, RETRA is not there for that, it is a subscription assosiation!
(Again, my bold.)
Perhaps this is the source of the confusion? It certainly confuses me!
Mike.Re: I should cocoa!
gandh1 wrote:
thread lock anyone???I guess that might stop me losing any more screws 😆 .
Mike.Re: I should cocoa!
DrDill wrote:Martin i feel that you are trying to trip me upo and it also feels like you have some motive or secret knowledge of me and my business, if you have something to say why dont you just say it! Looking me up on google, seeing what i am a member of, what you trying to find?
I have no ulterior motives or sinister intentions toward you DrDill, nothing further from my mind. No did I look you up on Google. I merely clicked on your own web-link and found that you are a RETRA member. And with that knowledge tried to point out to you that you are a member of a trade association. That you saw good reason for joining, that the benefits of membership suited you and your business. And, for all I know, you may indeed have questioned RETRA council members as to whether there were any rogues (D##kheads) within there midst prior to joining?
My point was that you saw benefit in joining a trade association and that that was entirely your choice. The WTA now has in excess of 100 members, they too made their choice. Intent on abiding by and supporting everything the WTA stands for and upholds. It is highly unlikely therefore that anyone that could in any way, shape of form be euphemistically labelled a D##khead would even know about the WTA let alone think of joining.
Re: I should cocoa!
Martin wrote:
DrDill wrote:
Martin i feel that you are trying to trip me upo and it also feels like you have some motive or secret knowledge of me and my business, if you have something to say why dont you just say it! Looking me up on google, seeing what i am a member of, what you trying to find?I have no ulterior motives or sinister intentions toward you DrDill, nothing further from my mind. No did I look you up on Google. I merely clicked on your own web-link and found that you are a RETRA member. And with that knowledge tried to point out to you that you are a member of a trade association. That you saw good reason for joining, that the benefits of membership suited you and your business. And, for all I know, you may indeed have questioned RETRA council members as to whether there were any rogues (D##kheads) within there midst prior to joining?
My point was that you saw benefit in joining a trade association and that that was entirely your choice. The WTA now has in excess of 100 members, they too made their choice. Intent on abiding by and supporting everything the WTA stands for and upholds. It is highly unlikely therefore that anyone that could in any way, shape of form be euphemistically labelled a D##khead would even know about the WTA let alone think of joining.
Unfortunatley Martin the WTA have not vetted the membership it has,this was confirmed by Ken as unrealistic and i can understand why, therefore you can not make the claim that all the membership abide by the COP (yet to be ratified by the OFT), that is my point, also i am not a member of RETRA so i can say i am a cut above the rest, its the retail benifits that it brings to my business, not really suitable for the many one man bands out there repairing, now the WTA is something you would want to promote membership of, as it says i have the knowledge, test equipment, liability insurance and i abide by a code of practice etc., and therefore i think all the WTA membership should at least proove that they have the minimum test equipment, insurance etc, something the WTA do not know as they havent checked the whole membership. That is my point and i would bet money on the fact that some of the WTA members dont even have liability insurance.
Re: I should cocoa!
DrDill wrote:Unfortunatley Martin the WTA have not vetted the membership it has,this was confirmed by Ken as unrealistic and i can understand why, therefore you can not make the claim that all the membership abide by the COP (yet to be ratified by the OFT), that is my point, also i am not a member of RETRA so i can say i am a cut above the rest, its the retail benifits that it brings to my business, not really suitable for the many one man bands out there repairing, now the WTA is something you would want to promote membership of, as it says i have the knowledge, test equipment, liability insurance and i abide by a code of practice etc., and therefore i think all the WTA membership should at least proove that they have the minimum test equipment, insurance etc, something the WTA do not know as they havent checked the whole membership. That is my point and i would bet money on the fact that some of the WTA members dont even have liability insurance.
Actually and, not to put too fine a point on it, that is complete b0ll0cks.
1. I did NOT say that members were not vetted.
Please read back and report what I actually said, not what it suits you or your argument to say.
2. The test equipment thing is utter tosh.
DASA tried for years to enforce that on members and failed for the very reasons I pointed out, you cannot afford to monitor members to that degree. And at any rate, having said equipment, with all the calibration certificates in the world, doesn’t mean that the member knows how to use it all.
If you really want to get into that argument then start another thread.
3. All WTA members do have employers (where applicable) and liability insurance.
DrDill, if you’re going to spout off at least have the FACTS to do so instead of just gobbing off at random with what is, in some cases completely and wildly inaccurate and take the time to actually read what’s been said to you.
I will apologise for the tone but, so far as I can see, you’re just trying to be antagonistic now and yes, you have annoyed me by trying to make out that I said things which I did not as well as making totally incorrect assumptions.
K.
Re: I should cocoa!
I have had enough of this ..
Nigel a few facts for you –1.
All WTA members have a minimum of £2Million public liability insurance and Employers liability cover where required FACT2.
The code of practice is there to protect the consumer and the repairer When we spoke to the OFT head of consumer protection in person
(I was there ) we were told that our COP was suitable to all current standards in our sector , barring a couple of small additions which were then made , we have happy shopping in place and also consumer feedback cards as Ken has suggested .
If the COP is OK for the body that oversees consumer protection for the government then its okay for me,and credit should go to those that created it in the first place ,and have updated it subsequently.FACT3.
Members old and new joined the WTA under the premise of adhering to the COP as it was on joining and after any and all subsequent revisions there has always been an accountability structure in place to protect the consumer.FACT4.
We have put the WTA under the scrutiny of a Government department it has passed FACT5.
We were approached by a manufacturer to provide service provision for there products BECAUSE we are accountable and measurable due to our members complying to the COP as part of there membership.FACT
Take a look at other industry codes of practice very few pre-vet members
as its not a very economical way of working ,its like an MOT or CRB check its only relevant on the day of inspection, better to have an ongoing means of checks and balances that will trip up the rogue traders.Having said all that if you have a particular viewpoint about the WTA and some of its members which I believe you do ,then regardless of what we all say you will always disagree …
You may see it as constructive I do not.If you feel there is a better or different way then go for it, start an association that does all the things you want it to,if you achieve it then I will be the first to congratulate you
As I said to you from the front at Coventry I would rather say I failed trying to change things ,than let it be said that I failed to try .Now its your turn ……
Lawrence Carey
Chairman WTARe: I should cocoa!
Ken, you wrote the following:-
It is not financially possible to visit every single member, especially in outlying areas, like Northern Ireland or the Outer Hebrides. It is unreasonable to expect every single member to be visited and, to my knowledge, no service association does so, certainly not in this industry due to the costs which the repair industry cannot bear.
I took this to mean that not all members of the WTA have been vetted, so not bollocks. Sorry that you have taken offence.
I dont believe that ensuring members have the basic test equipment is utter tosh at all, i see nothing wrong with ensuring that, most engineers that have it will use it, those that dont just wont bother to get it, my opinion.
Liability insurance i stand corrected, i am glad that you have copies of all members insurance as it is a basic thing that all repairers should have, so I APPOLOGISE FOR IMPLYING THAT SOME MEMBERS DONT HAVE IT.
My opinion is that the WTA should encourage members to have test equipment and to use it, i dont understand why you would be so angry about that. Again i think you have gone over the top with the tone of your reply.
I wish you would practise what you preach and stop gobbing off too, freedom of speech you told me.Lawerence:-
i admire all that everyone involved with the WTA has achieved, i acknoweldge what work has been done, but as yet i see no advantage or benifit of joining, untill that changes i will stay on the outside.
I also think its unfair to challange some one else to do something just because they have questions about what you have done, not every one agrees with these things, one poster on here is against things like gas safe but in my mind that has made the gas industry much safer in this country, just different points of view.As i have already said, i think what you and the others have done so far is a great start to some form of recognition and standards for our profession. WELL DONE
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