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Re: Who needs whom ?
Dave_Conway wrote:Who needs whom ? The dog starts to wag it’s own tail again 😀
Perhaps it is indeed.
But this is not a trade union, nor are we fixing prices here. Most of us are simply fire fighting for survival and having someone creaming off our fees is just not on now.
That bit (not the rest of this thread) for the moment is on the back burner as we and, I personally, don’t really see it as an option at this time. However, what is clear is that we have to do something to resolve the problems we all have, hiding your head in the sand and hoping it will all go away will not solve anything. We’ve taken the first steps here, we all talk, share tips and information as well as communicating with the WP’s and manufacturers directly. They can see what’s happening out there as well as we can, it’s up to them to make a move before we are forced to do something about it. From the communications I have with members of this forum and people outside of it something has to give… and soon.
My own opinions I’m keeping to myself for now on all this as I’m sure it’s a subject that will come up for discusion at the proposed meeting which I think will be very important for the future of UKW. But I do want you all to think about that as this site is yours, not mine. I have said time and again, I set this up as I saw the need for it and, yes, I drive it and promote it to a large extent along with my “henchmen” 😉 but as far as I am concerned it belongs to the trade since without you all it is of no worth.
It’s not just us that need to resolve the issues discussed here, it’s many a manufacturer and WP as well and they know it, or they should do by now!
Many of you seem scared to post because of retribution or some such nonsense and that’s cobblers as the subject line of this topic says, most of you are not easily replaceable and you should put more value on yourselves than that because you are worth more than you are given credence for. Don’t be under any illusion, Shane is correct, without us these people have no business or no service and if they can’t provide service when it breaks, they can’t sell it, policies or appliances.
Every time I see someone new posting it’s great, it’s fantastic to see different opinons, even if I don’t agree with it and I’m sure others would echo that here too.
I heard the other day that at a recent meeting in the Midlands that the term used was that they had (I presume) Electrue by the gonads because it was the busy time of the year etc.. Well no actually, WE have you by the gonads, just p1ss us off enough and you’ll find out to what degree as, if we so decide to stop working for any one provider they are in deep, deep brown stuff without a means of propulsion.
My own sentiment and that of the team that drives this site is that we can resolve this through working in partnership and negotiation and I truly believe that is the way forward, the only way forward in fact IMO. but many do not share that opinion and UKW is driven and run by it’s members remember, so the more you guys input the better it will get and the more people will see what the sentiments really are, so speak up that’s why this is here.
Chew on that.
K.
/end sermon and conversation with Mr Jim Beam 😀
No Flipper your analysis of the situation there is 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} correct, that is exactly how you are being used. Welcome to working for DSG, are you having fun yet?
Trouble is, it’s no joke. 🙁
K.
Re: Can anyone confirm…
No they’ve not capitulated at all, merely doing what they know must be done to retain order in the short term since the whole thing is coming crashing about their ears as of now.
It’s far from over and we’re way past the point of any possible reconciliation, everyone can just forget that for a plan this is now an out ‘n’ out scrap. 🙄
I have one concern and one concern only, it’s not me, the people reading this or the poor buggers in the forums that get fucked over here because someone is going to suffer through this, big time. I said weeks ago that there would be casualties in this little war, collateral damage they call it, I stand by that statement and there will be.
Wherever there’s DSG there’s damage, I’m sorry it’s the way they do business and they always have done, simple get involved and you get burned. 🙁
K.
Okay, on reading this (which is the single worst contract I’ve ever come across in my life!) I’ve found no less that 17 clauses I would immediately reject it on…for any one of the seventeen!
These are not even points of negotiation, simply absolute rejection, full stop, end of story.
We have:
All liabilities passed to the SP (Service Provider)
A termination clause that sees 5{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of your total turnover for 12 months retained.
No guaranteed territories and they can be changed at any time without consent or notice.
An alternative engineer can be put in place in your area and the cost passed to you!
A payment to customers if you fail to attend as scheduled, with no reciprocation for no-access calls.
Same day/next day service for normal warranty rates.
The option of pre booking (remember the £20 thing 😉 )
You are tied to using proprietory software without exception.
You provide training (at your expense)
You provide van stocks (at your expense)
Saturday, Sunday and Bank Holidays provision of service.
And that’s just the highlights!
Then on top of that we have the golden goodie of getting paid a warranty rate for premium service level out of warranty service. I thought this had to be a joke but apparently it is not.
Anyone that signs this document in it’s current format I would consider unfit to run their own business to be frank, it’s shocking, absolutely shocking! 🙁
If DSG/Electrue want conditions like that met then, in my honest opinion, they should employ their own engineers and try and force their own workforce to put up with those conditions for the money they pay us.
No wonder Service Force told them to stuff off!
I know both parties will read this and I know I won’t win many friends with this post probably but it had to be said and the last thing I want to see is the indepenent trade getting reamed, this document is set to do just that.
K.
Rudolph, sorry your fax doesn’t display a CSID so I couldn’t fax you back…
Is this genuine? If so I’m utterly gobsmacked to see some of the terms in this document in a SP agreement! A national SP to manufacturer direct agreement maybe but not a contract for a local level SP.
K.
Exactly, they need us and our skills so they can make a living, without us they are redundant. It often appears as a symbiotic relationship only the tail has been wagging the dog.
I can’t argue with a single point made in this post at all it is, IMO, 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} correct.
However I do want to stress in the strongest possible terms the relevance of the final statement there Shane. We do under-value ourselves and have done for many years and only we can collectively change that attitude in the industry.
Do not undervalue your or your company’s worth or underestimate your importance.
K.
Re: Electrue/NESN
Rudolph_Hucker wrote:Last week it came to my attention that there is a contract on offer to service providers who would rather work direct and cut out the middleman from the Potteries. I have read this contract and it is an insult to the trade. It is draconian to say the least, full of terms and conditions that would finish a lot of companies and will raise stress levels beyond belief. It must be said though that this was no doubt drafted by DSG themselves; the work providers have the unenviable task of operating it within the DSG terms. I won’t dwell on the contract for now, but the money on offer is an insult being £6 less than Mastercare paid in 1998 for what was an easier product to repair. (Mainly Philco). It is now down to those who are thinking about taking on or continuing the work and it is they who have to consider it.
If some kind soul would care to forward a copy of this document I’ll cast my beady eye over it, but from what I’ve been told/heard on the grapevine of some of the terms I wouldn’t touch it at £60 a call let alone £35! 🙄
Mind you, it was unworkable in January to my mind and nothing much has changed since then…or has it?
K.
Re: NESN & Rejections
Rudolph_Hucker wrote:No doubt someone out there will elucidate soon. If not, you can rest assured I will follow this up in the fullness of time
Go on then Rudi, your fans wanna hear it! 😆
K.
Re: Warranty Repairs & Warranties
Dave_Conway wrote:An interesting point, and one I was discussing just last night with someone. I think it depends on the contract and the rates for that contract.
Indeed, I would largely agree with that. If the contract rate is high enough to allow you to build in that cost then fair enough, sadly most are not at this time.
Charge work or work at full chargeable rates, yes I agree but that’s a whole different ball game.
K.
Re: Warranty Repairs & Warranties
bonzaco wrote:Should we seek another payment for labour, together with the part being replaced including the carriage. Mindfull that of course the manufacturer of the said new part should warranty it for at least as long as its failed counterpart.
Okay, there’s two questions there really…
On the first one, yes I think if it is a genuine spares failure that the manufacturer should pick up the tab for labour, even if it’s only at a warranty call rate which won’t cover the cost of it at all, but it least its going partways. But they don’t and they won’t even with the ludicrous amounts that some of them charge for spares. So we’re again left to pick up the tab and take that risk.
On contract work this is even worse as often you’re not making the profit that you should be on spares, nowhere near it in many cases. That is of course, if you make a profit at all on it! 🙄
Second one…
No, the warranty is there to provide a repair or replacement within a 12 month period at the manufacturer or retailer’s discretion. What that means is that within that warranty period they can repair or replace at will, it does not automatically renew the warranty on a product if the product is repaired or replaced within that timeframe.
The same applies to full appliances etc. there is no onus on the manufacturer or retailer to provide a renewal of the warranty if the product is replaced although many do.
There are very good reasons for this, but I won’t bore you with the full explanation of it.
K.
Re: Electrue/NESN
Rudolph_Hucker wrote:If Service Force can see it is untenable, how does anyone else expect it to work?
Rudolph,
Split it into chapters man! 😆
The rest I’ll get to no doubt but I wanted to share a couple of little golden nuggets about the above.
The information I have was that SF (Electrolux) lost bucket loads of money on this a while back, telephone number figures in fact. It was so bad that the Swedes got involved directly in trying to manage OUT of it! Rumour has it that the figure lost was in excess of £5 MILLION!!
They had to resort to propping up agents fees and all sorts in the end, it just didn’t pay and remember, those are the guys that made the damned things!
Which ties in nicely with GDA who, before they were bought by Merloni, told me that they were losing £14 a call, not a job, a call on this contract and that was the reason for the early finish on it. The Italians don’t like to lose money and who can blame them?
Now, it doesn’t take a genius to work out that if they couldn’t make it work with all the resourses at their disposal, given that they are serious worldwide players with cash to throw at it to make it work, that Joe Bloggs in Middlesex with bugger all cash to invest stands little chance! Yes, the little guy’s costs are less I agree. But not that much.
Think about it. 😉
As soon as I saw the original contract from out friends I told them it would not and could not work with the terms and conditions. I stand by that statement.
K.
(EDIT: I forgot 😳 : Then you have a “company” that comes along and takes nearly 25{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the labour fee in the contract to “manage” the contract (or mis-manage depending on your point of view. 😉 ) pretty much a no-brainer that it’s not gonna work)
Dunno Sumphose since DASA hasn’t published any details on the project except what’s in here or indeed offered much in the way of guidlines but the title suggests or implies a network of agents regardless of what way you want to slice it.
What would you rather we called it, Network UKW, Mickey Mouse Network? The latter hardly inspires confidence does it? 😉
As for the DASA council authority to use the DASA name it was my understanding that the approval was already given to use that as a working title for the moment until it was finalised. Additionally why should I or anyone else have to seek permission to mention anyone’s name when expresssing an opinion? That’s one of the areas where DASA are way behind the times, it moves at slightly slower than glacial pace as it’s too wrapped up in it’s own agenda at times. A subject that should be saved for another day.
For the time being ND is known as ND and let’s leave it at that shall we?
However it is my feeling that this post did not belong in this thread and it should have been posted in the Network DASA forum or indeed the DASA Bulletin board as it’s an internal DASA matter really IMHO.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue on this subject for the time being and I should think that it’s best left to the next council meeting in January, wherever and whenever that may be.
If you feel so strongly about us trying to promote DASA for the good of all then, to be perfectly frank, you’re simply going to alienate more people to the concept of DASA in it’s entirety which I’m sure is not your intent since we have spoken about doing the exact opposite on many occasions.
If youthink it’s needed then please contact me in privte to discuss the matter, but I think I’ve addressed the main crux of it here.
Basically I am only trying to help DASA.
K.
Re: Can anyone confirm…
Flipper wrote:Correct, but what is it, protection of work , protection of his agents!!!
Well you can bet your arse it’s not for the common good that’s for sure! 😉
JT has his motives for what he’s doing and I’m pretty sure I know what the game plan is but that’s for another day and, he won’t succeed if he is up to what I think he is.
Flipper wrote:I find myself between a rock and a hardplace and don’t know which way to turn. My guess is I won’t know which way to turn until it happens. I as well as others have muted u can’t trust either of the parties concerned.
You and the rest of the trade, almost everyone doesn’t know which way to jump right now.
Yes, correct, trust neither.
K.
Re: Electrue/NESN
Well I got a phone call a while ago from a party that wants to remain anonymous, a request I will honour. I’ve stayed pretty quiet on this thus far, now I have someting to say on it and this is purely a personal opinion and comment.
I have got the bones of a discussion running in the NESN web forum which, to me, sounds like pure propoganda. The gist of it is (my interpretation of it at least) that NESN or some members/directors or whomever seem to think that they are the saviour of this industry, oh how I laughed. They may be able to protect their own agents to a degree but no more than that. So if you’re an NESN member, then fine you’re okay (maybe). Sorry all the rest of you better pack it up and go home now! 😆
Somehow I think not!
There are comparisons drawn between the white and brown goods trade and whilst I acknowledge that there are a lot of similarities between the two they are not alike in many ways. Whilst painting with broad strokes it is best to remember that the two, in many respects, are worlds apart.
NESN, as I said previously, made the right move (IMO) in protecting it’s members postcodes but there are plenty more networks out there that can pick up the work albeit with a delay perhaps. Then there’s Network DASA in the offing and what’s to stop another network from coming online, it’s a free market folks and NESN has less members that even DASA does and DASA is woefully undersubscribed!
If NESN members think they are safe, think again and remember you’re in a contract that, should NESN decide to enforce the clause, you cannot work for a “competing” network or an ex-client for some time. Think about that. 😕
Apart from that open warfare between the two companies in the heading of this thread seems inevitable. Excuse me, did I hear a solicitor’s cash register going “ker-ching”. 🙁
K
