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Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
Hi twicknix,
I already see Martin has kindly added a link to his “clamp meter” pdf for you to have a look at 🙂 I use my combined multimeter /clamp meter instead of just a multimeter because it allows me to be safer when testing live using the clamp feature that my multimeter did not have.(i know some will say we should not test live ,but i guess most do).
I use it the same way as probably most do for checking the current draw of the heater element to see if it is working correctly under load .A simple calculation using ohms law will give you the current draw.Wattage divided by voltage gives you the amperage you then have an idea of the state of the element .You can also use it see if a motor is drawing to much current on initial start up and when stable ,you can check usually on the rating plate of the motor to see what the current draw is.You can check pumps etc it is a very useful tool to have.
Like you say alot of dw,wm ,td have a plug that is accessible from a socket in a cupboard but by using the extension lead with the outer-sheaf removed and the core wires exposed (as in Martins pdf ) then it is a lot easier to test the element in situ especially if it is a built in appliance .
As for loop testing then it is not as straight forward as we think as Philfish outlined above in his post..There are quite a lot of factors to take into account to actually test it like an electrician would. It also depends on the test equipment you have at your disposal and how to interpretate those readings.The tester i purchased and was the cause of this debate is easy enough to use ,it comes with an IECP UKA – 13a Plug to IEC Female Connector for plugging straight into sockets to carry out the tests – loop, mains voltage, correct wiring, correct polarity and does not cause any tripping.It also comes with fused test leads for connecting to appliances and spur outlets.When i use the test leads for standalone cookers or even built in hobs and ovens i always remove the appliance (once isolated) so i can test from the back ,why ? because i always want to check that the cable to the appliance is correctly fitted that the connector block shows no signs of any arcing or burn marks that can cause any issues to the appliance.Same goes for the cooker outlet point.Don’t forgot if any problem arises after you have been to an appliance and left, the finger always points to he who touched it last.How many who are in a rush for there next job and fit a cooker element without even checking the appliance over ? even if your diagnosis of the element is correct and you’ve removed the element from the front without removing the appliance you still have worked on that appliance and should make sure it is safe before and after. I do an earth continuity and insulation test once i have the appliance out ,if it seems like you could damage worktops or kick boards etc then you have the option of walking away from a badly installed appliance. Once i am happy i connect the loop tester’s fused leads to the earth of the appliance and then to the live and neutral..Readings are then performed and the loop test button can be pressed if the reading is outside of the given spec then you need to know if the system is TT etc as a higher reading is ok for a TT system upto 200ohm but not for a TN (pme ) which should be below 1ohm on this tester.
Like i have said this is by no means a full test that an electrician would do but at least it gives an idea of any potential faults.
If you would like a bit more info twixnix regarding systems and what the regulations are i can email a couple of pdfs to read but I’ll tell you there’s a hell of a lot to take in and will scramble your brain lol.
Shaun
Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
Just like to add that the tester i use will not let you perform a loop test if any of the other tests it performs first fails.
(could not edit my post to add the above to it 🙂 )
Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
Martin wrote:
It’s you and I sense your usual chance to wind people up coming on here.
No its been my job for a few yrs now.
martin wrote:
In your parallel universe then yes perhaps. For the rest of us we are learning all the while and those that seek help find it here on UKW by asking for advice from those proficient enough to offer it.
I’m sure in any investigation that would be a defense worthy of you, others may want to step back and consider some training by a competent person to current regulations etc etc etc before they do something wrong.
martin wrote:
I do hope it doesn’t keep you awake at night.
Not at all, keeps me employed, you never no you may even experience me first hand one day.
Now that would fill me with enough excitement to keep me awake at night. :rotfl:
Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
shaun67 wrote:
But here is where i disagree with Lee8 .I was fortunate to have been trained on using test equipment from the courses i attended.But it seems some people on here have not had that specific training using a loop tester with the separate test leads for hard wired appliances and only have the plug in type loop tester without the separate leads ,but are working on appliances and are doing there best to be safe and also leave the appliance safe.
Good sentiments, but, if a person is unsure of the equipment and its use and how to interpret the results, their then not safe, are they ?
Loop test’s are easy, any competent person should not have much difficulty with it beyond unpacking the product and getting familiar with it.
Plug into a socket with the earth lead on an earthed point on the appliance and watch the pretty lights.
Sometimes its better to leave alone, don’t meddle in stuff you don’t understand, may save you time chasing your own tail.
After all we criticize people trying to fix there own appliance’s without proper training, maybe Martin’s defense of learning as we go via the internet could justify these people doing it themselves, although isn’t martin critical of these people :rolls: .
Then again I’ve seen people on ServiceForce DATES courses take longer than 10 minutes to wire a 3 pin plug. 😥
Its even worse having people struggle with equipment you don’t need or understand.
I prefer my DR, my Electrician, my dentist, my Mechanic, my plumber etc etc all to have at least a basic knowledge of there tools, their job, maybe that’s just too much to ask, but for me at least I know that I can be safe demanding these skills, kinda my own safety checking if you like.
shaun67 wrote:
So having a “how to loop test correctly write up” similar to what Martin did with his “use of the clamp meter” and “insulation test” pdf would help some who were not trained with these specific testers. if they do buy one then they will have an idea how to use it correctly because not all test equipment manuals are straight forward if you don’t understand how to do it correctly in the first place .If everyone had the right training then there would be no need for a “how to” but this is not the case so any help is a good thing don’t you agree ??All you need is a Seaward PAT tester, plug the appliance into it and it gives a big tick or a cross.
Although if it fails lets hope the person who cannot work out how basic test equipment works has the grey matter to make the necessary repairs to the appliance, or as in my experience with so called professionals who simply walk away scratching there heads and hope for the best.
Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
lee8 wrote:
Good sentiments, but, if a person is unsure of the equipment and its use and how to interpret the results, their then not safe, are they ?Can see where you are coming from Lee8 ! but my point is ,if there are guys out there that don’t do a loop test on hard wired appliances and probably not sure how to do one,but are working on the appliance and say they never had any formal training but are in this trade , then it does not hurt to point them in the right direction .
Slightly off topic but similar discussion with the
insulation testing, some guys openly admitted to not owning one or knowing how to use it. But once it was highlighted on this forum those who were not using one realised how essential it was . These guys are not your average cowboys (well i hope not)and were not afraid to own up and learn from others !! Rather than be negative Lee8 ? why not encourage threads like these? After all it is good for the trade and more people will be safer .Maybe one day it will be governed properly and everyone checked to make sure they are doing the correct safety checks etc .Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
shaun67 wrote:insulation testing, some guys openly admitted to not owning one or knowing how to use it. But once it was highlighted on this forum those who were not using one realised how essential it was . These guys are not your average cowboys (well i hope not)and were not afraid to own up and learn from others !!
The numbers of downloads my “how to use a Megger.pdf file and the massive interest the Megger Thread generated was testament to that. Lee8 had plenty to say on that thread too I recall.:wink:
shaun67 wrote: Rather than be negative Lee8 ? why not encourage threads like these? After all it is good for the trade and more people will be safer .
Now that is pushing the bounds of possibility just too far! 😯
Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
Just like to add that the “cowboy ” phrase was not aimed at anyone on this forum ! I was merely trying to say that asking for help shows that it is a good thing ! and i reckon someone who is a “cowboy” would not be wanting to know about the safer working practices or how to use test equipment correctly !
I did try to edit my post after i re -read it but could not.
I hope that anyone reading this thread will not be deterred from asking for any help in the future regarding test equipment .I will certainly not be put off to ask anything that i am not sure of and welcome the help of others .
Funny how a thread started on me asking if anyone had this tester just to see if it was any good or not,then ended in a debate about competence etc mainly from Lee8 !
This is my last post on this thread as it’s gone past what i was originally seeking.shaun
Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
Ah but it opened a food debate, my question is this for all you engineers out there who do the loop test and rcd test, what do you tell the householder when you find a fault with there electrical installation? I dont think i want to get in to that situation so i will just check the safty of the appliance i am fixing and that the socket or outlet its connected to has the correct polarity and an earth.
I can rest easy knowing these 2 things and that is all i can be held responsible for after i have left. Unless you are a qualified spark why would you want to go around checking customers electrical installtions when you have only been called to fix an appliance? I just dont get it.
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http://www.kitchenkitsw.comRe: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
DrDill wrote:Unless you are a qualified spark why would you want to go around checking customers electrical installtions when you have only been called to fix an appliance? I just dont get it.
After using a loop tester on a oven and finding fault with the customers wiring then I advise them to contact a qualified spark to get it sorted pronto. Likewise make out a written report of my findings on my invoice to them. On numerous occasions I have also found earth and polarity problems with customers ring mains, taking no time at all testing outlets with a Martindale tester. Advising the same course of action to my customer.
Hey Doc! I’m no qualified spark, just a responsible domestic appliance repairer doing what’s right……It’s what many of us do, all in a days work…..get it now? 😈
Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
And as i said that it what i do also martin, reading others posts above they are doing all sorts of other things
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http://www.kitchenkitsw.comRe: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
you think our responsibility would stop at the plug .. but it is good practice to earth loop if you have the tester to do so ..and advise customer of any issues
ally
Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
Now thats the bit i dont understand, as far as i am concerned it should be left to a qualified electrician who can back up his test results with his qualified knowledge, not a un qualified appliance engineer. I use good practice in making sure i test the earth security of the appliance i have worked on and that the socket outlet is ok, beyond that it should only be tested by a qualified spark, but this is just my opinion and this has worked for me over the last 32 years
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http://www.kitchenkitsw.comRe: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
The most important reason for the the EL test is to ensure the socket you are plugging the appliance into is correctly wired and earthed. This test should be done before you plug the machine back in.
This is to protect your self should there be an issue, engineers often have to multiple live test to ensure the machine is working correctly, you need to know that that socket is correctly earthed and wired properly.
Having found an issue with the socket you have the option to inform the customer of a potential problem. If there is a reversed live/neutral then this is a safety issue and this should be rectified. People often think this is not a big issue but depending on how the machine switches it feeds to components it could be a problem
If you find an earth fault such as no earth then again it’s a safety issue and should be rectified.If you get a high EL reading then this is where it’s grey, some if us will be trained spark’s and some won’t have a clue. The best way forward is if you have a reading above 200ohm regardless of the system you can notify the customer that there COULD be a problem and if they want to know more they should contact a sparky.
Those in the know can have a look of its a TT or supplier earth system and know if its normal or not but even if your in the know unless your part P and issuing a periodic report then you should never tell the customer there system is safe, you should just take the reading and move on.
Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
You mean 2 Ohm, not 200 Ohm, surely? I would have thought 200 Ohm was downright dangerous?
Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required
Nope I meant 200, I would advise anything above 100 should be investigated. The thing to remember is your testing at the socket and not the incoming earth. A true EL or ZE is taken from the earth where it enters the consumer unit, your testing it through a ring main and this has a affect
Regardless of the earth system if the system is fitted with an RCD then in theory an IR up to 1667 is perfectly safe as this is the maximum requirements for a TT (earth rod) system that’s classed a the least safe of the earth types
If there is no RCD then 200 is the maximum.
The best way is 200 for everything even though its higher than the maximum for TNCS,TNS systems the fault protection should still operate. If its an RCD then you doubly covered.
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