Does anyone use this loop tester info required

[DrDill]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

And there above is why this should be left to qualified electricians, conflicting statements about which measurement is correct or safe

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[madangler1]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

To a point I agree. I was a sparky for 10 years before moving to appliances , the more you dig into earth loop the deeper the hole goes unless your going to perform a full battery of tests that your not qualified to do you can never be certain

The simple way forward is to perform a test to ensure the socket is safe and your getting a reasonable reading. After that its down to you IF you inform the customer.

Your responsibility is with the appliance not the system.

[Martin]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

madangler1 wrote:Your responsibility is with the appliance not the system.

I’m sure you didn’t intend that that statement could be interpreted as ” jobsworths” did you? That we should ignore issues beyond the plug top? Of course not. 🙂

Wiring issues with hard wired appliances such as ovens, hobs, extractors and most built in washers cannot simply end at the point of connection. Failings must be notified and, in many cases, the appliance isolated until the problem is rectified. You don’t need qualifications do be able to act safely and responsibly just the good sense to advise calling in one who has.

I’m no doctor but can sure diagnose the onset of a stroke when I see it and advise they seek help rather than walk away. 😉

[madangler1]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

No my point is legally your responsibility is with the appliance, obviously on BI the rules change and if there is a issue then as you say isolate and inform the customer of the issue.

[DrDill]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

Sorry martin you are using any thing to justify your opinion. You are not a doctor so you can not diagnose a stroke you can only give your opinion as you are not qualified! That is my point above, unless you are qualified then you have no basis for telling customers that their electrical installation is not safe, what if you do and the customer then calls out a qualified electrician who tells the customer that their is nothing wrong? She ends up with a bill and you have no qualification to argue that the electrician is wrong. My opinion is that you should never tell anyone this stuff unless you have the qualifications to back it up!
And on this subject i will bet you that 90{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of engineers on this site dont even check the polarity and earth continuity to the appliance, and i dont see in the news loads of people being electrocuted by their machines.

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[lee8]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

shaun67 wrote:

Can see where you are coming from Lee8 ! but my point is ,if there are guys out there that don’t do a loop test on hard wired appliances and probably not sure how to do one,but are working on the appliance and say they never had any formal training but are in this trade , then it does not hurt to point them in the right direction .

Kinda, but Brand Engineers don’t loop test hard wired appliances especially if the appliance hasn’t been removed from installation, they use there multi meter to the nearest earth point (wall socket) or if none near they don’t do any and the basic loop test without green lead at a socket near the appliance.

For Indie’s there is no legal requirement, sure its easy to do on freestanding, but if you change an element on Mrs Smith built in oven and 3 months later she gets several amps of unpleasantness and dies, your still not liable and that expensive piece of kit is useless and a waste of money, why because the test is only good the day and the time you did it.

shaun67 wrote:
These guys are not your average cowboys (well i hope not)and were not afraid to own up and learn from others !! Rather than be negative Lee8 ? why not encourage threads like these? After all it is good for the trade and more people will be safer .Maybe one day it will be governed properly and everyone checked to make sure they are doing the correct safety checks etc .

Show me the figures of deaths that could have been avoided if an Appliance Engineer had done an Earth/Insulation test. :rotfl:

Whilst I agree basic tests should be carried out, my point which many have missed is that Govt should bring in Regulation that is both accurate to the needs of the industry and effective, which then results in Nationally recognized training and qualifications and that we can then call ourselves qualified.

I prefer that method to the current system that nobody is qualified (Unless they are sparks) regulated, monitored, trained which then results in people buying kit they neither need or cannot use properly and relying on internet to learn.

Until then all of us within the White Goods Industry are not competent to do a loop test and give accurate results, all we are required to do is make the client aware of an issue, which usually results in a spark calling out, issuing a correct result and the client ringing the brand for a refund of the call out because some Muppet stated it was dangerous. :rotfl:

[lee8]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

Martin wrote:

The numbers of downloads my “how to use a Megger.pdf file and the massive interest the Megger Thread generated was testament to that. Lee8 had plenty to say on that thread too I recall.:wink:

Proves my point how poor training is. :rotfl:

Martin wrote:
Now that is pushing the bounds of possibility just too far! 😯

Not when every day I’m called to put right the mess so called profesionals leave behind.

Today I had a 1 wk old Leisure Home call where the engineer had ripped the floor removing the washer, he fitted 2 PCB’s and still could not get rid of the error code, I call find out the error code meant no fill, found the water tap still in the closed position, nobody moved in as it was delivered and the appliance failed the hand over inspection. The Eng (independent part of a well known WP network) was supposed to have 10 yrs plus in the industry, now I wounder how competent his testing is. :rolls:

[lee8]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

Just one point you all responsible people doing your tests missed, for it to be legal your test equipment has to be not only calibrated yearly it also must conform to certain requirements, certain martindales etc etc will not be accepted in certain situations.

100 ohmns is the magic number.

[lee8]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

Martin wrote:

I’m no doctor but can sure diagnose the onset of a stroke when I see it and advise they seek help rather than walk away. 😉

You’d look like a muppet though if you got it wrong though. :rotfl:

Conditions with Similar Symptoms as: Stroke
Description:

Below is a list of symptoms of this condition and the other conditions that could cause them.
Aphasia:

Dementia
Endocarditis
Coma:

Alcoholism
Diabetes Mellitus
Hypoglycemia
Hypothermia
Measles
Seizure Disorders
Dizziness:

Anxiety
Fibromyalgia
Food Allergy
Food Poisoning
Heat Exhaustion
Insect Bites and Stings
Menopause
Migraine Headache
Miscarriage
Motion Sickness
Myocardial Infarction
Temporomandibular Joint Dysfunction
Transient Ischemic Attacks
Headache:

Allergic Rhinitis
Amenorrhea
Anaphylaxis
Anemia
Bone Cancer
Brain Cancer
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Common Cold
Cough
Encephalitis, Viral
Endocarditis
Fever of Unknown Origin
Fibromyalgia
Food Allergy
Food Poisoning
Glaucoma
Heat Exhaustion
Herpes Simplex Virus
Histoplasmosis
HIV and AIDS
Hypertension
Hypoglycemia
Hypoparathyroidism
Hypothyroidism
Influenza
Lyme Disease
Meningitis
Menopause
Menstrual Pain
Migraine Headache
Mononucleosis
Motion Sickness
Mumps
Myeloproliferative Disorders
Otitis Media
Pharyngitis
Photodermatitis
Premenstrual Syndrome
Radiation Damage
Seizure Disorders
Sinus Headache
Sinusitis
Sleep Apnea
Systemic Lupus Erythematosus
Temporomandibular Joint Dysfunction
Tension Headache
Tuberculosis
Varicella-Zoster Virus
Headache, severe:

Lyme Disease
Transient Ischemic Attacks
Hemiparesis:

Endocarditis
Mental deficiency:

Brain Cancer
Hypoparathyroidism
Hypothyroidism
Muscular Dystrophy
Near-syncope:

Anxiety
Brain Cancer
Food Allergy
Migraine Headache
Pulmonary Hypertension
Neurologic deficits:

Radiation Damage
Numbness:

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome
Diabetes Mellitus
Endocarditis
Food Poisoning
Frostbite
Hypoparathyroidism
Lyme Disease
Migraine Headache
Multiple Sclerosis
Raynaud’s Phenomenon
Transient Ischemic Attacks
Pain:

Cellulitis
Frostbite
Glaucoma
Multiple Sclerosis
Nail Disorders
Photodermatitis
Tendinitis
Ulcerative Colitis
Varicella-Zoster Virus
Warts
Wounds
Pallor:

Endocarditis
Leukemia
Motion Sickness
Seizure Disorders
Syncope
Paresthesia:

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome
Fibromyalgia
Hyperkalemia
Multiple Sclerosis
Speech problems:

Alzheimer’s Disease
Anaphylaxis
Atherosclerosis
Food Poisoning
Hypoglycemia
Hypothyroidism
Transient Ischemic Attacks
Thrombosis:

Crohn’s Disease
Myocardial Infarction
Varicose Veins
Vision disturbances:

Amenorrhea
Atherosclerosis
Bone Cancer
Brain Cancer
Cataracts
Diabetes Mellitus
Food Poisoning
Glaucoma
Hypertension
Hypoglycemia
Migraine Headache
Multiple Sclerosis
Myeloproliferative Disorders
Preeclampsia
Roundworms
Transient Ischemic Attacks
Varicella-Zoster Virus
Vomiting:

Alcoholism
Anaphylaxis
Angioedema
Appendicitis
Brain Cancer
Cirrhosis
Congestive Heart Failure
Crohn’s Disease
Diabetes Mellitus
Diverticular Disease
Encephalitis, Viral
Food Allergy
Food Poisoning
Gallbladder Disease
Gastritis
Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease
Glaucoma
Heat Exhaustion
Hepatitis, Viral
Herpes Simplex Virus
HIV and AIDS
Hyperparathyroidism
Hypoparathyroidism
Influenza
Insect Bites and Stings
Intestinal Parasites
Kidney Stones
Measles
Meningitis
Menstrual Pain
Migraine Headache
Motion Sickness
Myocardial Infarction
Pancreatitis
Pelvic Inflammatory Disease
Peptic Ulcer
Peritonitis
Pertussis
Pyloric Stenosis
Radiation Damage
Roundworms
Syncope
Systemic Lupus Erythematosus
Weakness:

Atherosclerosis
Bone Cancer
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Cirrhosis
Colorectal Cancer
Congestive Heart Failure
Diabetes Mellitus
Endocarditis
Food Poisoning
Hyperkalemia
Hypothermia
Low Back Pain
Migraine Headache
Myocardial Infarction
Prostate Cancer
Sarcoidosis
Serum Sickness
Transient Ischemic Attacks

Read more: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/stro … z295rrzW3C

[DrDill]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

Exactly lee8, you put it so much better than me.

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[Brains]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

I would like to add my two-penny worth. I know that this will start some flack. :rolls:

100 ohms EFLI is far to high for any final circuit. When you take into account parallel paths created by Main Protective Bonding (even for a TT supply configuration) then one would expect a very much lower value.

The 100 ohm figure is normally the absolute max value for the external EFLI value at the origin of the supply. If you have measured external EFLI values in the region of 200 ohms then you may have unstable earth rod arrangement for a TT supply.

The typical EFLI max values you should be looking will be dependent on the controlling fuse or circuit breaker at the Consumer Unit.

So, why do we measure EFLI? This has not been clearly explained in any of the posts.

The reason to measure this value is to assure that the protective device (eg fuse or MCB) will clear within a specify period of time (for TN installations below 32A within 0.4 seconds) under fault conditions.

So for TN type installations,

16A type B MCB max EFLI is 2.87 ohms
20A type B MCB max EFLI is 2.30 ohms
32A type B MCB max EFLI is 1.44 ohms
40A type B MCB max EFLI is 1.15 ohms

When carrying out measurements always take 80{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the above values as your working max. The 80{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} value is a generally recognised rule of thumb (ROT) value that takes into account things as installation and thermal conditions.

if a 30mA RCD is present, then you will need to use the ‘no-trip’ mode on the loop tester. The absolute max value here is 1667 ohms to earth. This value is determined by the max allowable touch voltage. L-N loop values are as detailed.

If you find a loop value that exceeds the above, advise your customer to have the installation checked. Better safe than sorry.

With regard to calibration, an acceptable verification method is to use a known socket, say, at home or the workshop. Record the values once a month and you can then see if the meter is drifting.

I could ramble on a bit more if so requested. Always pleased to help someone if needed.

Hope the above helps someone & adds clarity.

Regards

[Martin]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

Brains wrote:So, why do we measure EFLI? This has not been clearly explained in any of the posts.

Give us a clue here Brains…..WTF is EFLI?

I tried Google but is comes up Elite Football League of India. :rolls:

Joking aside all this pi$$ taking of late serves no purpose and like the OP Shaun I too am out of here? 😐

[Brains]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

EFLI = Earth Fault Loop Impedance

[DrDill]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

See you later martin, as usual when counter arguments are posted that dont fit in with your opinions you start to be jovial. I personally think my opinions and that of others have helped all to see an all round view of what the original poster first asked about and obviosly expand on it , we all know about the piece of equipment, what it does and weather the rest of us should get one, its a forum!

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[madangler1]

Re: Does anyone use this loop tester info required

Brains wrote:I would like to add my two-penny worth. I know that this will start some flack. :rolls:

100 ohms EFLI is far to high for any final circuit. When you take into account parallel paths created by Main Protective Bonding (even for a TT supply configuration) then one would expect a very much lower value.

The 100 ohm figure is normally the absolute max value for the external EFLI value at the origin of the supply. If you have measured external EFLI values in the region of 200 ohms then you may have unstable earth rod arrangement for a TT supply.

The typical EFLI max values you should be looking will be dependent on the controlling fuse or circuit breaker at the Consumer Unit.

So, why do we measure EFLI? This has not been clearly explained in any of the posts.

The reason to measure this value is to assure that the protective device (eg fuse or MCB) will clear within a specify period of time (for TN installations below 32A within 0.4 seconds) under fault conditions.

So for TN type installations,

16A type B MCB max EFLI is 2.87 ohms
20A type B MCB max EFLI is 2.30 ohms
32A type B MCB max EFLI is 1.44 ohms
40A type B MCB max EFLI is 1.15 ohms

When carrying out measurements always take 80{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the above values as your working max. The 80{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} value is a generally recognised rule of thumb (ROT) value that takes into account things as installation and thermal conditions.

if a 30mA RCD is present, then you will need to use the ‘no-trip’ mode on the loop tester. The absolute max value here is 1667 ohms to earth. This value is determined by the max allowable touch voltage. L-N loop values are as detailed.

If you find a loop value that exceeds the above, advise your customer to have the installation checked. Better safe than sorry.

With regard to calibration, an acceptable verification method is to use a known socket, say, at home or the workshop. Record the values once a month and you can then see if the meter is drifting.

I could ramble on a bit more if so requested. Always pleased to help someone if needed.

Hope the above helps someone & adds clarity.

Regards

you are quite correct HOWEVER this is from a electricians point of view, these readings are the requirements to prevent death from direct electrocution to human or livestock, however this does not concern appliances,

on an appliance your concern is that should there be a earth fault the trip will fail with out fire or secondary electrocution from touching the chassis. this is why manufactures train there engineers to accept 100 or 200 ohms.

the second reason for this is the non trip testers, i spent 10 years performing periodic inspections, non trip is not a valid test as its readings can vary vastly compared to taking a true ZE (external fault loop test at the board) and Zs(internal earth loop) & R1 & R2.

We can go around in circles all year with this, the simplest way is how the manufactures recommend the tests, regardless of the system with or with out RCD a reading of 200ohm (some say 100) or under is acceptable for an Appliance engineer to deem the system safe for him to work on and allow the appliance to work safely

anything else is irrelevant

[Author]

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