EEE safe email.

[kwatt]

Re: EEE safe email.

Keep in mind Graham that I operate in a goldfish bowl as Sean likes to remind me, everything is open to scrutiny and once you cross the line into that arena you have to expect that to be the case.

If you want to keep things confidential don’t bring them up in a “public” forum would be my advice. 😉

Techi wrote:I’m not aware, but not surprised either, however, the guys should also understand that not everything new is bad –it’s that negative attitude thing again.

Not so much. More they have been shafted and don’t want to let it happen again, which I know you can appreciate only too well, you earned that T-shirt a while ago.

So, rather than just jumping in, they ask questions and find out about things, quite rightly too IMO.

Techi wrote:I think you and others will find that there are instances on the forums of mis-information based on supposition.

Absolutely. Including in your post on some points that I think you may have been misinformed on.

Techi wrote:Robert has and continues to attempt to engage UKW/WTA but to date such advances have been relatively ignored when in reality it is clear that there is a much bigger picture to be taken into account.

That is not the case.

I have had had no contact whatsoever with Robert since the meetings and, so far as I am aware, he has not posted on here in some time, if ever.

From memory, I think the only conversations I’ve had about this have been with yourself. Some of the WTA guys might have mentioned it but, to be honest, it wasn’t something I was especially interested in as I do not feel qualifications are the answer or nirvana that they’re often made out to be. A part of the tapestry, perhaps but not the whole story by any means. But, that’s just my personal opinion and a number of people disagree with that take, which is fine.

Techi wrote:Just as UKW and the WTA did not have or require a government mandate or support from an official body to set themselves up neither did EEESafe. However, there are now government and official bodies willing to fund trials in Training, Running Centres and are applauding the efforts to regulate the sector.

True but then again, neither has tried to introduce any standard beyond a basic working criteria in the form of a COP and there is certainly no regulation in there beyond the most basic of basic.

I was not aware of any funding but, I don’t operate in that arena or pay it much heed.

I was completely unaware of any impending regulation of the sector and, like all other instances, I personally would resist that in the strongest possible way as I feel it a folly to even invite that as a possibility.

So much falls off the back of that making it, IMO, a bad, bad idea to head down that path. I didn’t always think so but, I’ve learned a lot since I did.

Techi wrote:I believe Robert has this as factual evidence in writing, but I’m not currently able to provide further details until they come to the table and agree to discuss in confidence and sign Non-Disclosure Agreements. However, here are already NDA’s with some sizeable organisations including funders and commercial organisations.

I can’t hide like that. I’m in my goldfish bowl. 😉

Techi wrote:It’s not a Charity, it’s a Social Enterprise. I am sure that you, Ian and Lawrence already know that the Government has officially stated they are not funding the sector. So the only real options were to stand back and watch it die, or take action. This led to the idea of EEESafe which is very much how Gas Safe started. EEESafe doesn’t sell Spares or are held by Manufacturer Agreements. The concept is to be free from such restraints. By avoiding these potential pitfalls EEESafe does not need to “follow the money” as you put it as it does not have to satisfy shareholders.

So, it’s a business in essence.

Government isn’t funding any sectors, they’ve not got any money to do it and aren’t likely to have any anytime soon, think decades.

Equally, they don’t have any money or much call to regulate or enforce any legislation that they did introduce.

So, as they do, they’ll leave it to market forces to sort out, possibly off the back of other initiatives on the go but, this isn’t on their radar and unlikely to be.

Although you say EEESafe doesn’t follow the money, they still need to pay wages and meet costs therefore it will require revenue streams. I see there’s the selling of products going on or, supposed to be but aside that the only revenue stream I can see, given the lack of funding support from government, has to be the people that are signed up surely?

But to create a “Gas Safe” or “CORGI” for appliance repairs is probably the single most insane thing I could think to do. The effect would be a mass exit of people from the industry, just as witnessed with CORGI/Gas Safe.

For businesses that survive it and remain, it ill ramp up labour costs by a considerable amount. Which will in turn ramp up the costs of service to retailers and manufacturers which will in turn mean that they will resist any change in that way. If they don’t then they’re likely not seeing the probable outcomes.

To regulate that sort of operation requires mammoth funding which, if there’s none from government (taxpayers), has to come from the industry, there’s nowhere else it can come from. Which means that the £45 will not remain that for long after that is realised or probably even instigated.

Techi wrote:EEESafe does and is committed to its outputs and outcomes on Social and Environmental grounds and if EEESafe (with no shareholders and only a Steering Group and eventually a Board, which you are welcome to join in and influence (but not to simply benefit your ISE Organisation or UKW’s Shareholders)

Laudable aims.

However, I can’t say to be thrilled with the prospect of helping another business for free so someone else can earn a salary from it. So I’d have to decline the offer.

Asides which, there’s a few things I feel I would be fundamentally opposed to which wouldn’t make for a comfortable situation.

Techi wrote:More business and become part of a standard we hope to convince government to adopt. Remember Gas Safe and where it came from. Consumer confidence and accountability to a standards organisation that they can promote to customers.

Good luck with point one, if you crack that then you’re sailing.

I do indeed remember Gas Safe, how it is backed by legislative requirements, how onerous it is, how expensive it is and how much of a total PITA it is. I also remember all too well how B&Q et all torpedoed a lot of the plans that CORGI and the HSE had, I was there for that.

The whole example of Gas Safe though is riddled with issues and, not just from our perspective, but from within the gas industry as well. In short, it’s no shining beacon of perfection by any measure.

Techi wrote:We intend to create demand for EEESafe Registered Repairers.

I sincerely wish you well and the best of luck with that.

Once the demand is there I am sure that you will get guys signing up in droves, without it I personally think EEESafe might struggle sadly. But at least this conversation has helped people understand what it is and is all about.

K.

[jamieparrie]

Re: EEE safe email.

hello.i think its a good thing.
lee8 saids in another forum here that workforces have to be competant ect ect ect.now there seems to be a body being put together that can offer training and testing therefor adding more weigt to competence when the wolfs come knocking.
for 45 pound a year i dont think that is bad?.
and i dont get that kwat keeps going on about cost to repairers.everything needs paying for?.even the wta charge 70 pounds a year?.would the wta be able to maintaine everything if they started oferring free?.
even this very forums are free but when tou look on companys house,it makes a lot of money!.so the man banging on about free fre free is actualy making a small fortune himself out of repaireres.
as esafe will grow then goverment listen.its the way it is.at the moment its new but like all things it got to start somewhere.

[kwatt]

Re: EEE safe email.

Hi Adrain,

Decided to pollute this thread with your rants now as well, I’m sure we’ll all enjoy.

As for me making a fortune, yeah go onto Companies House and look see just how much I make you complete idiot. I EARN less than many repairers so don’t you dare insult me like that again.

Also, if you care to have a look, you will note that I have done more than a little work for myself to get UKW to where it is, it was not off the backs of repairers and to say that is deeply insulting as well as plain wrong.

Unfounded accusations usually make you look a fool and, this one is no exception to that rule.

K.

[Techi]

Re: EEE safe email.

Cheers Lawrence,

I like the idea of Robert having a presence on the forum as I am sure it would be of benefit to all concerned.

It will also allow Robert to put his take on things as opposed to mine which inevitably revolves around technical issue as opposed to the ‘politically correct speak’ that I am really not fond of.

Mentioning your name only came about because as you say we have met at events like DEFRA and WRAP and more often than not find ourselves supporting one another’s points of view. It is always best to demonstrate a united front at meetings such as the ones mentioned even if we may not do so on other occasions.

I am not sure if you will agree but I think it was a real pity about the whole DASA debacle and I still hope that the initiatives Dave Coombes worked so hard to achieve continue.

I believe that Dave had (and still has) ‘cross party support’ and like me probably think that working together in the common good is the best and may ultimately be the only way to make real progress. So I sincerely hope that dialogue between the two groups will continue.

I know a lot may not like such comments for a wide variety of reasons but the experience and standing of guys like Dave should not be lost as I am sure it will be needed in the future.

With regard to a place on the steering committee that door will always be open.

Regards

Graham

[Techi]

Re: EEE safe email.

Hi Ken,

I can commiserate with your ‘living in a gold fish bowl’ analogy and for one always appreciate the open dialogue and gems of unique inspiration and terminology we have always had and long may it continue.

For my part I am not normally a forums person and prefer the more personal email approach but thought for once I would respond openly to the original posting and I think all in all it has resulted in some interesting dialogue.

With regard to the Gas Safe analogy that’s all it was just an analogy which can be used both as an example of what can be done and how it shouldn’t too.
Picking out the best parts and whenever possibly learning from the mistakes made by others is always the best mode of learning.

However, I guess there are just some things that have to be learned the hard way and I don’t expect EEESafe to avoid those types of lessons completely.

I think the message from all what has been said in the various postings is that – “Nothing ventured, nothing gained” another may be “watch this space”.

Even if it fails someone else may learn a lesson from it and use it to improve their own ideas.

Regards

Graham

[lee8]

Re: EEE safe email.

I believe 2 mistakes are common.

1. Believing it will be perfect.
2. Over complicating the model.

The industry as has been said already self regulates itself at the CV stage of an employee attempting employment. Its more complicated when a person launches a business.

Eeesafe model will not work. This l agree with Ken. It has all the traditional traits of previous adventures in which some business peeps get together, get a few yrs of nice company cars, expense accounts etc etc etc then dies a death.

My take on it is govt interest is not via a group of business people.

As i’ve stated before keep it simple, don’t involve the private sector and copy other govt run models in other sectors.

I would also be surprised if aide wasn’t somehow involved in eeesafe, would be right up his street.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

[jamieparrie]

Re: EEE safe email.

now comeon kwat.how many times have we had this bit of conversation?.my name is jamie.not adie or jamie parmly or jamie william parrie :rolls:
i read lots on these forums and it alsways seems the same.something new is said and straigt away dismissed and negative reaction by same couple of peeps.its always the same 4 or 5 names.
it seems to me as a reader that someone has got together to improve the future of the appliance trade and thats a good thing?.if the content of this forums are anything to go buy,everyone is dooooomed so everyone should welcome a change or new?.
nothing will be launch tomorrow and be a nation winner because everything takes time.i have read lots of the esafe website and they are working for the future.even if the fuftur might be years and years away.
it make no difference what anyone or any body thinks in reality its up to every person to visit them and get the info and make up there own minds.as far as im concernd,even if someone is getting wages for it,so what?.as ive already established,nothing is truly free.
the wta charge 70 pound a year.what are they changing?.
the other one dasa charges as well.what are they changing?.
change has to come from collective.same in spark trade to.collective effort make changes in time,not one person or organisasion.
esafe seem to be a collective with the rigt aims and give them time before dismising!.
i think kwat more than anyone needs to acept that sometimes a sucsesful thing might mean employment needed.that means wages might be need.so right it off for that reason?.doesnt make sense unles you dont like it,like other things because of un profesional reasons.
jamie(not adie or jamie parmly or jamie william parrie) :rolls:

[kwatt]

Re: EEE safe email.

jamieparrie wrote:now comeon kwat.how many times have we had this bit of conversation?.my name is jamie.not adie or jamie parmly or jamie william parrie :rolls:

Yeah, whatever. As if anyone believes that.

jamieparrie wrote:i think kwat more than anyone needs to acept that sometimes a sucsesful thing might mean employment needed.that means wages might be need.so right it off for that reason?.doesnt make sense unles you dont like it,like other things because of un profesional reasons.

Again proving that you are an idiot IMO.

You seem to forget that unlike your “friend” Ade, UKW does not charge to get calls to engineers. Not a bean, nadda. Never has, never will.

There is no charge to use these forums and anyone is free to go anytime they like. There is no mandatory reason to use them and, no cost. Never has been a cost, never will be one.

You also ignore the other stuff that gets done for free.

You know, little things like trying to feed the guys work through Amica and a number of other things completely fro free by myself with help from others, including the WTA. Direct benefit for many, no cost, no strings. Never charged for doing that, never will.

Then seem to think it’s okay to have a go because there is a requirement to have a revenue stream to support all that whilst stating that another organisation is fine for charging directly? Ironic, eh? You feel that different standards should be applied to different people, probably because you don’t like me and, well, that’s about it really isn’t it? I can’t say I care much what you may think.

Once you go off and think about it, if you can bring yourself to do so and have the ability, you may come to realise that UKW and others directly contribute as much as, if not more, than they can and probably ever could take from the industry.

I will let others judge how we’re doing on these fronts as I’m afraid I don’t really rate your opinion. More than ten years on with UKW, I’ll stand by what has been done quite comfortably.

Now, please stop polluting this thread, which has been a nice illuminating conversation with your attempts to slag me, UKW and the WTA off because, most every post you make is that or promoting your “friend”.

K.

[jamieparrie]

Re: EEE safe email.

thats 2 posts i made where questions not ansered.
i have not promoted adie in either.ive only stated that once again tree and bark,wrong come to mind.
if you step out of your goldfish bowel and read what i said again,you will see i am not promoting noting.just engaging in open debate regarding esafe.
jamie.

[lee8]

Re: EEE safe email.

Within the industry one of the best voices that could make it work is annoyingly Ken, the wta & UKW.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

[kwatt]

Re: EEE safe email.

jamieparrie wrote:thats 2 posts i made where questions not ansered.

Try asking proper well reasoned questions, you might get on better.

K.

[aqualectric]

Re: EEE safe email.

They’re at it again……

Another email…this time it shows the control panel of a washing machine with buttons showing the route a non EEEsafe repairer would take to fix a machine.

No prizes for guessing it’s less than flattering!!

So if they can’t get you on board by convincing you that EEEsafe is the way forward for standards then they will insult everyone that is not registered. Way to go guys!!

OK – would EEEsafe have an agreement written in blood from the manufacturers to supply all the tech info required for their registered engineers to be able to diagnose, test, re- program, carry the exact part to first time fix everything, every time? This would be the hallmark of a true professional.
Well of course not. So why pretend that registered guys that carry a plastic card and pay a membership fee are going to be at an extreme advantage? If that is in fact correct, then the case should be stated, supported by hard evidence. The control panel insult is probably more directed at manufacturers engineers as they have the ability to throw parts at the problem more than the independent who has to buy them in, so is more careful to get it right. Can EEEsafe sort this? Can they walk on water as well?

In my previous posts on this, I asked those questions and of course they were never answered. To regulate the industry, you have to have majority support from those working in it; including the manufacturers. They have demonstrated with sealed tubs and non – configured electronics that they are really not interested in the independent trade at all, so has anything changed? If I am applying high standards to my job, test everything I do, have 30 years experience and hoards of satisfied customers who recommend me on then am I not as “professional” as EEEsafe standards? Or will it all suddenly change for the better as I grasp my EEEsafe membership card in my hand?

I am fed up with Checkatrade, Trades UK and now members of our own trade in the form of EEEsafe trying to denigrate non members of their cliche. You are not whiter than white you are in it to make money.

Convince me otherwise.

Steve.

[iadom]

Re: EEE safe email.

Got the same spam mail from them yesterday, it said I had subscribed to be notified of developments, “Oh no I didn’t”. :rolls:

[lee8]

Re: EEE safe email.

Weird.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk

[Martin]

Re: EEE safe email.

lee8 wrote:Weird.

I nominate this for ‘Quote of the Week’. Priceless in its simplistic irrelevance once more.

[Author]

Posts