I bought an ISE 10

[mbooth]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

Many thanks to John Hopwood, for explaining this himself!

But I am sure everyone on here would agree this should of been detailed before any new units were even sold, as it is clearly false advertising.

I am in the same predicament as Jaunty on what to do?

The first reason I brought was I am sick of throw away appliances, second was I know I am covered by external insurance for 10 years.

As for a new company like yourselves to break into the high end market with the likes of Miele, you need an edge I feel the insurance and no parts mark-up was it!

If this escrow fund is not sent up correctly in any way, and the unfortunate did happen and you did indeed fold, this money may vanish leaving no warranty at all.

I feel the only way forward on this if ISE can clearly detail the warranty, and provide certificates detailing this escrow fund and show it is in fact separate to your company. plus a way we can verify this? as all we have is company reputation and age. (slightly tainted at present)

Else I can see not just myself but many on here returning their units.
And you also struggling to sell any more, which may indeed cause the unthinkable of closure to happen.

I don’t want this as I think your company ethos is brilliant and hope more do follow you.

If anyone else could give there opinion as I am stuck!

[ajsdoc]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

Well I’m quite disappointed to hear this. See my request for some info regarding the ISE10 warranty after I bought it earlier in the year (concerned that I had not received insurance backed guarantee documents).

http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/modules.p … highlight=

You’ll see my comments about the security of insurance backed warranties and my wish for actual paper documentation of cover. Can you confirm that money from the purchase of my machine (earlier this year) has purchased a 10 year insurance backed parts and labour warranty?

If so, I have no copy of such policy and feel I’d like to have this in my possession, so how do I obtain this? I’m also unclear that claims have been rejected – the insurance backed warranty was clearly in place to provide reassurrance to customers in the event of ISE going bust. Am I right to be reassurred or should I be concerned?

Can a previous purchaser get a copy of the terms of warranty and insurance arrangements? The warranty arrangements were a major consideration in my decision to buy and I’m sure for many others.

I found the reluctance/inability to provide insurance backed warranty documents unusual when I enquired before and remain concerned about this issue to be honest.

Reassurrance (and documents) are required. Does any ISE 10 owner have insurance warranty documents in their possession??

Andy.

[kwatt]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

I was going to reply earlier but didn’t have time so John did.

The fact of it really comes down to this:

We could have insured again but the insurers apply ‘averages’ to anything. The Swedish built ISE machines are far from average. In fact, they have a lower failure rate than a certain big brand German machine that purports reliability from the numbers I have.

So, ISE would get the privilege of having to effectively subsidise other poorer quality machines or, pay insurers bonuses. Look at it how you will but I could see the sense in going to a provision based system as it dramatically reduces the cost to users and ISE.

With the new premiums it was looking to increase the cost of a machine by £100-200 per machine, probably closer to the £200 mark. That was not acceptable.

That aside, I wonder how many other manufacturers or brands would offer anything like that level (or even this level) of openness in what they do? I suspect none would be the answer to that question.

Unfortunately yes, we missed some of the insurance stuff as it was a lot to trawl through but a lot of it had been removed or changed some months ago. It wasn’t any attempt to be misleading at all as you accuse with the “false advertising” statement, it was a simple case of human error. And, in any event, the offer has been made to fully refund if you are not happy, I can’t see what else ISE could possibly do.

As John also has said the new ISE website was due to go live at the start of the month along with the new machines arriving but, due to technical issues, that didn’t happen on time sadly. It will be live next week.

What I can tell you is that ISE is very financially secure.

AS for struggling to sell units, not at all. We use them daily in light commercial application to HM Prisons, HM Forces, Premier Travel Inns and a whole heap of other applications like that. The problem quite honestly is that ISE can’t get enough machines, that’s why they went out of stock from last week until today.

But ISE is obviously safe enough for these sorts of clients and they do tend to check things in minute detail.

HTH

K.

[ajsdoc]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

Sorry we overlapped. Just so it doesn’t get lost, can someone from ISE review my post above and clarify cover for people who’ve previously purchased ISE10s.

[kwatt]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

Hi Andy,

Yes, all the 1606 and 1406 models are covered. This only affects the new machines from October 2010 onwards.

There are no individual policies as all the insurance was on a commercial footing and, at best, we’d get a policy reference number and that was all. this is why ISE originally issued the paperwork themselves as the insurer wouldn’t do it. So there’s no need for any concern there at all, it’s just the way it’s always been and seems to be operated within the industry as all the insurers do the same thing the same way it appears.

The problem is that when people asked for this they were effectively asking for a document that never existed as it’s on a bulk policy governed by a commercial contract.

I hope that’s clarity enough.

K.

[quickwash]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

hi all,

I will soon be receiving my new 1607 :bounce: and after reading this i am actually rather relieved and happy to read that an insurance company is not involved in the warranty anymore! I am purchasing an ise10 because of the way it is built, ‘like a tank’, and for its longevity and obviously due to the 10 year warranty, (but only partly i must add). As far as i can see as long as this new arrangement is set up as a seperate structure, which obviously it will be as the folks at ise must have their ‘heads screwed on’ going by their products and ideas! Also i am now thinking that us the customers will now get some sort of document to this effect, which will make everyone feel more secure!

It was obviously a shame that the website was not up and running before the machines were available, but i do not think it was not meant to mislead anybody, i truly believe that the ise people wouldnt do this!

I for one am 😀 to read this!

quickwash :plug:

[ajsdoc]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

kwatt,

Thanks for the reply, I have no reason to doubt you and apologise if the questions come over as lacking in trust. However, it seems to me that your customers have to invest not only a large sum of money but also a large amount of trust into the ISE10 ethos. It’s a leap of faith to buy from a smaller less well known company than say Miele. You’ll be very aware of this. These fora are full of comments along the lines “don’t worry you’re protected even if we go bust by the 10 year insurance backed warranty”

I’m happy I’ve got an insurance backed warranty (this was heavily marketed and described as a positive thing on these fora). That is what I bought and I’m glad that’s what I’ve got.

I still feel it would reward the trust placed in ISE if a written document confirming insurance policies and numbers came to customers. To be brutally honest, I worry about the awful situation of you going bust (and I sincerely hope you don’t as I agree with your ethos and in particular the support of smaller independents and repairers).

It seems the insurer is not paying out in a reasonable number of claims that you make (hence the decision to the “fighting fund” model you now are moving forward with).

If you go bust, they are even less likely to pay out to me! (Especially if I don’t have a document outlining the terms of my insurance cover.) I assumed a watertight (pardon the pun) parts and labour warranty covering all but me doing silly things to block it or damage the machine. Is this what I’ve got (I have no way of knowing)?

If a large proportion of your claims are being rejected – is the policy you’ve purchased fit for the promise made at purchase? The only way to know is for the customer to know the terms and have proof of cover isn’t it?

I’m happy to be trusting to a point, but still feel details of the actual insured terms and proof of my individual cover isn’t asking the earth. It’s not for me to decide your company’s policy but as this is a fora where ISE is regularly discussed I think it fair to outline my thoughts and concerns.

Apologies if I seem vexatious, I really don’t mean to be and honestly wish the company well. The machine, for all this talk, really does seem very good!

Andy.

[kwatt]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

Hi Andy,

Unlike some, we don’t mind some prodding.

The whole ISE project, which is what it started out as, was to offer people a fair shake and support small independent repairers and retailers. We had very, very limited resources and, compared to the global corporations that own most brands, still do.

ISE do however have one major advantage over all. They don’t owe anyone a bean.

Not an insurer.

Not a bank.

Not a finance house.

No-one. Not a soul.

We had this crazy idea that we could do all this without any external finance or borrowing at the get go and, for that, I have to take the blame. But, five years later, we still don’t owe anyone a bean.

It’s hard for a business that doesn’t owe anyone any money to go bust. In fact, you’d have to be a complete moron to make it happen.

So, we plough our own furrow basically.

We did what we thought was right and we insured all the machines until the insurers basically turned the tables on us, least that’s the way we see it, and decided that they wanted a bigger pound of flesh. The decision was taken not to go down that road.

And, that’s it really.

For the machines sold prior to the change of the new platform, they’re all insured as billed. As soon as we came to an impasse with the insurers we stopped the insurance thing totally, with the obvious misses excluded and they were most certainly not deliberate or anything remotely like that. ISE has never operated that way, never will.

We give people the truth, you might not like it, you might even think it’s awfully strange but, the truth’s the truth and there’s no getting around it in the end.

The fact is that ISE have to pay out on every single claim made then reclaim from the insurer, this has been the case since the get go and is not going to change. ISE have to front that and then ISE have to take any claim rejections as an operating cost.

The thing about rejections and claims and, trust me, I’ve analysed this to death, is that you see a huge spike in the first three months of ownership and then it dies on the ISE10 range. This is because in the first three months you get all (and, pardon the bluntness) stupid faults from installation and people getting familiar with the machine. My stats show that over 50{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of all reported faults over the past 3-4 years occur in the first three months. Nothing to do with the machines at all, lots to do with the familiarisation and they are non-faults.

Non-faults are not covered by ANY manufacturer’s warranty, product is irrelevant, brand is irrelevant.

So ISE insure then have to pay out on over 50{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the claims anyway as they are not covered by insurance. Where’s the sense in continuing with such a silly system?

All ISE do is line the insurance companies coffers. It accomplishes little else.

On what is and is not covered by warranty:

I should have thought the warranty was pretty clear.

Anything that constitutes a mechanical or electrical failure is covered.

Like most warranties what’s not covered is blockages which will be caused by misuse, incorrect use and failure to maintain per instruction.

That’s the absolute letter of the law under an insurance. This is a pain as it allows ISE absolutely no flexibility given that they’ve already paid to cover any failure as part of the purchase. This is the rule set by the insurer. No exception.

So, if your machine is insured then it is governed by that ruleset and ISE has little to no say in it.

Move to provision.

ISE can take a view on what’s fair, acceptable and reasonable.

ISE can deliver better customer service, be a lot more flexible and control their own customer service instead of having some insurer that doesn’t know a pump from a control board from dictating what the customer experience is or what will and will not be covered by warranty.

We’ve learned and evolved.

We think it’s better for ISE customers and better for ISE. If we didn’t, we’d have paid out the premium and increased the price accordingly.

K.

[Jaunty]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

Kwatt that speech is all well and good but all the chap is asking for is documented proof of the Axa warranty. I do not understand why he/she can not have a warranty certificate if there is a warranty in place for the old ISE10?

“There are no individual policies as all the insurance was on a commercial footing and, at best, we’d get a policy reference number and that was all. this is why ISE originally issued the paperwork themselves as the insurer wouldn’t do it. So there’s no need for any concern there at all, it’s just the way it’s always been and seems to be operated within the industry as all the insurers do the same thing the same way it appears.”

Sorry I disagree. There may well be a master policy but each person should receive a certificate independently confirming their warranty coverage. I have plenty, typically either from Domestic and General or Axa for my products.

As to the position on the repair account for new ISE10s and how it is structured legally – I look forward to some sort of answer to my prior queries before deciding to proceed, or going for the “safe” route of a Miele from John Lewis for the same price virtually with a 10 year warranty. I like ISE and the product but need to know the 10 year warranty has substance.

[kwatt]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

As I said, there are no individual policies issued, there never has been.

We can request from he insurer the policy reference that pertains to any one policy but they will not issue an individual policy. I think I was pretty clear on this in an earlier post.

Basically, the document that you are requesting does not and, never has, existed as it is not a domestic policy therefore you have never had, nor could you have, such a commercial contract. Unless of course that you’re saying that you blanket insure thousands of products and register each in different locations?

Ultimately there is little more that anyone can provide to you and should you choose another option I completely understand and it really is your call on how you want to go there.

All I would offer by way of advice is, make sure to ask what the T&C’s are on other offers in this realm and make an informed decision.

K.

[Jaunty]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

Here is one example of an Axa backed warranty:

http://domain1256822.sites.fasthosts.co … ty{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d}20C.pdf

which summarises the terms and confirms each policy holder will be sent a policy within 21 days. As the previous poster says, should you go bust how do they prove they have a warranty and who do they claim against? There must be a certificate per person, and you should be able to provide prior purchasers with a copy of the master policy. Or alternatively, the master policy will state that proof of purchase will automatically entitle the purchaser to cover under it. The fact that it is a commercial policy vs a domestic policy has nothing to do with anything and details of the policy should be available.

Any way, I don’t want to get hung up on past sales but still would like to better understand how the repair fund works for future purchases works and who would administer it. mbooth put it well earlier in the thread here:

“If this escrow fund is not sent up correctly in any way, and the unfortunate did happen and you did indeed fold, this money may vanish leaving no warranty at all.

I feel the only way forward on this if ISE can clearly detail the warranty, and provide certificates detailing this escrow fund and show it is in fact separate to your company. plus a way we can verify this? as all we have is company reputation and age.”

Is there going to be any more independently verifiable information on the warranty cover provided? Or are the prior comments on this thread all we are going to get? For example is the fund having a lump some deposited in it at day one? As other wise it does not work when we are at the early stage of sales ie 10 sold = £9,000 = £900 in the repair pot, not much for 10 years.

[mbooth]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

I fully agree with Jaunty,
Previous owners should be fully entitled to a policy document

From your own ISE brochure, you indicate you do it for every machine separately.

When we established ISE we were very conscious of people would not trust our long guarantees. To
reassure people we set up a system so that when an ISE machine is sold, the installing agent registers
the serial number and other details with us. We then purchase a guarantee from AXA via an FSA
registered broker to cover that appliance. No other manufacturer operates this way.

http://www.iseappliances.co.uk/downloads/isebrochure2.pdf
This is also a massive U-turn on this as you dedicated a whole section to why this is such a good system?
Do you have a copy of the new brochure and have you explain your new escrow system in the same way?

you say this has been known since September of the move to Escrow,
I have been through all post on here and on your website and found not one mention, in fact not even correcting someone on a post on Nov 10th

by hander -ISE appliances – some thoughts –
ISE is a small outfit. The guarantee for ISE is insurance backed (good but is Miele going to go under in 10 years? My intuition tells me not).

Sorry Kwatt going to have to quote you also

kwatt – The ‘Reason’ Washing Machine –

——————————————————————————–
I just wonder, not reason…

Who are they as I’ve never heard of them and that’s pretty unusual.

Who underwrites the 10 year warranty, if anyone?

Who is servicing it?

Where and who is building it?

Who is bankrolling it?

So may questions… no answers.

K.

You yourself questions an unknown brand and asks the same questions as we are asking to your company now.

I myself would like to keep this machine, so would all that have received one, but we must have proof previous people have cover.
and how the new system works for us new adopters.

This is ISE’s chance to put things right, no waffle or we can’t do this or that.
We know the reasons why you changed it, sounds good to me also.
But let’s see how this is put into practice !

[kwatt]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

Guys I’m sorry but we were forced down this path, it wasn’t through choice. We had less than three months notice of it all and we’ve been trying to sort out how we did it.

The situation right now is that we are in negotiation with a few companies to manage the warranty fund outside of ISE and those are ongoing now. This was the only way that we could find to move away from an insurance based system and still maintain what we set out to do.

The fact of it is that nobody trusts anyone these days after all the stuff with the banks and several big names going bust the past couple of years. And, if you choose not to trust ISE then that’s the choice that you make.

I have fully explained the situation with the previous policies, if anyone wishes to verify the cover it’s no problem, we can request the policy reference number and give you the number of the broker that is FSA registered, you can call them up if you like. We paid them to provide the cover.

I think I’ve explained the situation well and in detail. If it’s not good enough then I’m afraid there’s not a lot more I can do.

K.

[Jaunty]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

That seems such a feeble repsonse after all the effort put in previously to explain things. Just answer the question, if you go bust, what is the proof of warranty cover for prior purchasers of the old ISE10 and where do they direct a claim? A policy wording must exist with terms and conditions, why not put a pdf of it up? Or get a letter from the broker or Axa confirming purchasers of the old ISE10 are covered, and the basis on which they are covered?

And until I know more about the warranty fund, I don’t think I can spend £900 on something that could potentially be a 73 kg doorstop in a year should ISE fail and I have a major mechanical breakdown. I won’t buy a different machine yet as I would like an ISE10 – I just need more reassurance.

Come on, you need to reassure past and present purchasers and you need to do it quickly.

[mbooth]

Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?

I am shocked Kwatt by your response.
it’s not a matter if we trust ISE, this is now getting into legal realms.

I am no solicitor, but know if I purchase something it has to be “as described.”
I myself purchased an ISE 10 1607W washing machine which came with a 10 year insurance backed policy, (the insurance policy is also a tangible product) this makes up the price of £899

I now find I no longer have an insurance product on my 1607W, and no cover until a separate escrow fund is set up, is my complete product worth £899? and what happens until the fund is set up?

Yes you have fully complied with the law and said I can have a refund, but I believe I am in my full right plus all other previous buyers to our insurance policy cover documents also? (I will get this checked out with my local trading standards), as do not want to be quoted on this till it is confirmed!

[Author]

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